7 ms·

When my wife first moved here to the US (from overseas), we'd pass by some used car places and they had cars with big "$1999" and "$2799" in the windows. "Wow.

When my wife first moved here to the US (from overseas), we'd pass by some used car places and they had cars with big "$1999" and "$2799" in the windows. "Wow... they've got great prices!" she said. I burst her bubble with "that's just 'downpayment'". Eventually we went up close to one to show her "yep, the car is actually $11k, but they put $1999 in giant numbers to get you to pull in. She's not dumb by any means, but I don't think this was legal in the UK where she came from. That was a bit of an eye-opener for me.

jimt1234 3y ago
I once read a comment here on HN from someone in Australia, saying that, according to local laws, advertised prices must match the final price, including taxes, fees, etc. So, if the price says "$100", you're gonna pay $100. That blew my mind. I've lived in the US my whole life; I never really thought a straight-forward pricing system was possible. Seriously. Then I remember getting kinda depressed, because the pricing system here (in the US) isn't going to change anytime soon. I recalled an article about Ticketmaster, which basically said that their system of showing the final price only at checkout, after a bunch of screens/clicks, is hugely profitable for them, almost everyone still purchases the tickets, regardless of the fees, because the process is so painful and there's really no alternative. Back to reality. Advertised ticket price = $100. Final price = $165. Ugh.
- mgkimsal 3y ago
  With so many local taxing jurisdiction, it's essentially impossible. I bought something from my office, and if it's shipped to my office, I pay one tax. Shipped to my home (in a neighboring county), it's a different (lower) tax. I did some POS work for a company years back and tried to integrate 'taxes'. I was replacing an earlier system, and I used modern tax SaaS (avalara, IIRC). The client was telling me all my taxes were wrong, but... digging in... Avalara was correct, and the client had been calculating and collecting taxes wrong for... about 15 years. I had no way to try to figure out how they were doing it 'wrong' to match how they'd been doing it. This had to do with 'service/labor' income vs 'product' vs 'chemicals' they used. Different counties in the same state had different rates (which changed over different months/years historically). Tribal lands had different rules still. The biggest lesson I took from that was... if you do something (tax calculations), do it consistently and uniformly. Should they have been audited, it may have looked a bit better that they were at least consistent in their tax issues, instead of looking like they were explicitly trying to somehow intentionally scam customers or the govt.
  - user_7832 3y ago
    I don't think that's true. India for example has a ton of different taxes and until a few years ago the differences between states and different products were significant. Yet that didn't make it impossible, because everyone was already used to it.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > India for example has a ton of different taxes and until a few years ago the differences between states and different products were significant India has two, maybe three, levels of taxation: central, state and maybe local. In America, you may have dozens of overlapping cities, counties, water districts, school districts and high school districts before we get to municipal, state and federal.
      - mgkimsal 3y ago
        My own experience in a few different states is that it's usually just township/city, then maybe county, then state to be concerned about, but... the what is often more confusing. Selling a chemical? That's a specific tax rate. Applying that chemical? Might be a different rate, and might only be applied to the labor. The big one that tripped up the client was not charging/collecting tax on shipping. They weren't, but the tax engine said that they should be. I think the rules on that had changed sometimes perhaps 10-15 years earlier in the areas they served, but they never kept abreast of that change. This was already several years ago, so my recollection is a bit hazy now.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    You could solve this in two ways: 1. Allow companies to advertise a price exclusive of tax (but inclusive of fees) 2. Require companies to list a single total price where the final price the customer pays is less than or equal to. So their advertised price would be inclusive of the highest tax rate the customer would be required to pay. The oft-cited tax calculation "problem" is just an excuse.
    - deleted 3y ago
- efdee 3y ago
  Same here in Belgium and most other EU countries that I'm aware of. Advertised price must be final price including VAT.
  - user_7832 3y ago
    I'm fairly sure the same is true in India, however I think restaurants/eateries can have exceptions but it is mandatory to mention if tax is not included in listed prices. Fun fact: India also has a system called MRP or maximum retail price. This is a price printed on the product at the factory, above which a shop cannot sell it. So no up-charging based on where you're buying it.
- bcrosby95 3y ago
  They also get you for parking. My wife went to a concert and the parking was $250 - more than the ticket.
- woobar 3y ago
  It is all about priorities. Do you want a feel good law that requires final price, or to pay less? I've just priced same import car in US and Australia. Yes, the manufacturer website in Australia lists all junk fees (Appointment fee???) upfront. But I'd rather deal with a surprise "doc fee" and pay 33% less.
  - rondini 3y ago
    How does consumer protection === higher prices? And anyway I would rather that nobody be scammed out of money instead of a select few with the means to play the game (who could afford to pay more anyway) coming out on top.
  - jimt1234 3y ago
    Why not both? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

jimt1234 3y ago

I once read a comment here on HN from someone in Australia, saying that, according to local laws, advertised prices must match the final price, including taxes, fees, etc. So, if the price says "$100", you're gonna pay $100. That blew my mind. I've lived in the US my whole life; I never really thought a straight-forward pricing system was possible. Seriously. Then I remember getting kinda depressed, because the pricing system here (in the US) isn't going to change anytime soon. I recalled an article about Ticketmaster, which basically said that their system of showing the final price only at checkout, after a bunch of screens/clicks, is hugely profitable for them, almost everyone still purchases the tickets, regardless of the fees, because the process is so painful and there's really no alternative. Back to reality. Advertised ticket price = $100. Final price = $165. Ugh.

mgkimsal 3y ago
With so many local taxing jurisdiction, it's essentially impossible. I bought something from my office, and if it's shipped to my office, I pay one tax. Shipped to my home (in a neighboring county), it's a different (lower) tax. I did some POS work for a company years back and tried to integrate 'taxes'. I was replacing an earlier system, and I used modern tax SaaS (avalara, IIRC). The client was telling me all my taxes were wrong, but... digging in... Avalara was correct, and the client had been calculating and collecting taxes wrong for... about 15 years. I had no way to try to figure out how they were doing it 'wrong' to match how they'd been doing it. This had to do with 'service/labor' income vs 'product' vs 'chemicals' they used. Different counties in the same state had different rates (which changed over different months/years historically). Tribal lands had different rules still. The biggest lesson I took from that was... if you do something (tax calculations), do it consistently and uniformly. Should they have been audited, it may have looked a bit better that they were at least consistent in their tax issues, instead of looking like they were explicitly trying to somehow intentionally scam customers or the govt.
- user_7832 3y ago
  I don't think that's true. India for example has a ton of different taxes and until a few years ago the differences between states and different products were significant. Yet that didn't make it impossible, because everyone was already used to it.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > India for example has a ton of different taxes and until a few years ago the differences between states and different products were significant India has two, maybe three, levels of taxation: central, state and maybe local. In America, you may have dozens of overlapping cities, counties, water districts, school districts and high school districts before we get to municipal, state and federal.
    - mgkimsal 3y ago
      My own experience in a few different states is that it's usually just township/city, then maybe county, then state to be concerned about, but... the what is often more confusing. Selling a chemical? That's a specific tax rate. Applying that chemical? Might be a different rate, and might only be applied to the labor. The big one that tripped up the client was not charging/collecting tax on shipping. They weren't, but the tax engine said that they should be. I think the rules on that had changed sometimes perhaps 10-15 years earlier in the areas they served, but they never kept abreast of that change. This was already several years ago, so my recollection is a bit hazy now.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  You could solve this in two ways: 1. Allow companies to advertise a price exclusive of tax (but inclusive of fees) 2. Require companies to list a single total price where the final price the customer pays is less than or equal to. So their advertised price would be inclusive of the highest tax rate the customer would be required to pay. The oft-cited tax calculation "problem" is just an excuse.
  - deleted 3y ago
efdee 3y ago
Same here in Belgium and most other EU countries that I'm aware of. Advertised price must be final price including VAT.
- user_7832 3y ago
  I'm fairly sure the same is true in India, however I think restaurants/eateries can have exceptions but it is mandatory to mention if tax is not included in listed prices. Fun fact: India also has a system called MRP or maximum retail price. This is a price printed on the product at the factory, above which a shop cannot sell it. So no up-charging based on where you're buying it.
bcrosby95 3y ago
They also get you for parking. My wife went to a concert and the parking was $250 - more than the ticket.
woobar 3y ago
It is all about priorities. Do you want a feel good law that requires final price, or to pay less? I've just priced same import car in US and Australia. Yes, the manufacturer website in Australia lists all junk fees (Appointment fee???) upfront. But I'd rather deal with a surprise "doc fee" and pay 33% less.
- rondini 3y ago
  How does consumer protection === higher prices? And anyway I would rather that nobody be scammed out of money instead of a select few with the means to play the game (who could afford to pay more anyway) coming out on top.
- jimt1234 3y ago
  Why not both? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯