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I feel we are having two different discussions. This is less about "show full breakdown of price in final bill",which is what I see debating here and what lev

I feel we are having two different discussions. This is less about "show full breakdown of price in final bill",which is what I see debating here and what level should that be taken to,and more "don't advertise $X and then show $x+$y+$z unexpectedly" on final bill which I assume is less controversial .

taeric 3y ago
This is an odd one, too. There is a lot of defense these companies will get for how complicated it is to price in all of the costs of business that are local taxes. Never mind that they already do this with the likes of labor and infrastructure cost variation. I'm somewhat sympathetic to billboard advertising, as that is something that can't really do this. But the vast majority of advertising can, in fact, show this level of detail quite easily.
- BobaFloutist 3y ago
  If you know how much to charge me, you know how much to advertise. It's literally that simple.
  - uxp100 3y ago
    No. It does depend on where you live. Buying vehicles across state lines is very common and can result in significant differences in price. Doesn’t mean you couldn’t advertise the price as “for residents” or something.
    - gwbas1c 3y ago
      > Buying vehicles across state lines is very common and can result in significant differences in price At least in MA, you have to pay the sales tax in order to register the vehicle. It doesn't matter what state you bought the car in. The regulators aren't letting that loophole slip in. Everyone here goes to NH to skip out on sales taxes, including the regulators that pass the sales taxes.
  - legitster 3y ago
    Advertisements don't stop at city limits and zip codes. If I see a promotion in one side of town, the tax could be on the other side.
    - PeterisP 3y ago
      That's not a problem anywhere else - if you have two (or two hundred) locations with different tax rates, just calculate whatever is the highest total, and advertise that - you're definitely allowed to sell stuff for cheaper than you advertised, so if one location has a 2% lower tax rate, you can sell it cheaper there; or you can charge different pre-tax prices so that the total is the same, if that's more profitable for you; I've seen both options used when advertising prices in EU-wide international campaigns despite different VAT rates across EU countries.
    - immibis 3y ago
      So let the billboard say $5+tax. The price tag in the store should still say $5.99 - the state border doesn't go down the middle of the checkout line. If it's online and you know where I live, it should say $5.99 too.
      - pavon 3y ago
        > So let the billboard say $5+tax This is what is done now, and what the FTC/FCC are trying to make illegal. The sticking point is that these specific industries have gotten very creative about what constitutes a tax or government fee, so it isn't as simple for consumers as knowing you have to tack on sales tax.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- quickthrowman 3y ago
  My seven county metro area has close to 20 different sales tax rates, depending on the city and county. It’s not as easy as you think.
  - taeric 3y ago
    It is far easier than this framing, though. They already have to worry about high variations in every other cost that goes into what they are doing. Heck, running an ad campaign will have variable costs that are also based on location of ad. Which is all to say that dealing with variable costs is part of doing business. That they are currently able to dodge responsibility for some things by attaching them after the fact as "fees" is kind of upsetting to me. Consider if you had them send out a service unit to fix a line in the neighborhood, and they decided to line item send you a fuel bill for the work. Was something they always had to deal with, but finding a way to keep an expense from cutting into profits by directly passing it to users is a touch crazy.
  - LiquidSky 3y ago
    >It’s not as easy as you think. It is EXACTLY that easy: "$PRICE + applicable tax". It's truly bizarre to see people here hurling themselves to defend slimy, deceptive business practices and acting like in 2024 this is some utterly complex insoluble problem. And finally: too fucking bad for the businesses. Prices should be completely transparent, consumers should know precisely what they're going to be asked to pay upfront, if that creates a burden for businesses tough shit.
  - NikolaNovak 3y ago
    I get we are all nerds here who love nothing more than to examine the unlikeliest of edge cases in great depth,and that typically makes us very good at our jobs... but this is all slipping into profound apologist territory. While there are a vast number of people from different localities laws and regulations here,for most people the issue we are trying to solve here is simple and the surcharge is not tax or regulation based. In particular, when buying vehicles dealer surcharges are one massive entry and taxes are a) already separately listed b) in great detail and c) not typically that variable. Similar with various telecom completely BS charges which are variations of "we need this money to actually be profitable" - which is fine as such,you're a business and need to be profitable,cool. But don't make me drive 50km or spend 3 hours signing up based on advertised price and then add on BS surcharges that have nothing to do with local regulation and everything to do with your business and marketing plan. that is the problem we are trying to solve,and again,arguments here seem to veer from "let us definitely let the perfect be enemy of the good and not solve anything until my favourite clever unlikely edge case is addressed" , to "shirley I have a vested interest somewhere to be protesting this much" :) P.s. and then there are Ticketmaster convenience fees and other companies service fees. I want to see somebody stand up and defend them here as a complicated problem and undue business burden and the right thing for the consumer :)
- chadash 3y ago
  Just make the billboard display the correct price for where the billboard is physically located. If you have a newspaper ad, make the price correct for the main city of distribution.
technofiend 3y ago
Fees that may not be in general waived or avoided should not be broken out from the price. Examples: Ticketmaster "convenience" fees, Las Vegas hotel "resort" fees. AT&T / Comcast / etc "recovery" and other fees. It's disingenuous to tag contributions to the price "fees" so they can be hastily added at or near the end of a transaction, rather than just giving the true cost to a consumer up front. What next? McDonald's $2.00 value menu plus $5.99 Oxygen and Water Fee at checkout?
- datameta 3y ago
  Ticketmaster "convenience" fees send me the hardest. They mean I'm paying for their convenience of not having a physical location or staff?
- chrismcb 3y ago
  I once bought a cheap airline ticket online. Skipped the slew of fees they offered... then got to checkout and was charged a ticket purchasing fee!

taeric 3y ago

This is an odd one, too. There is a lot of defense these companies will get for how complicated it is to price in all of the costs of business that are local taxes. Never mind that they already do this with the likes of labor and infrastructure cost variation. I'm somewhat sympathetic to billboard advertising, as that is something that can't really do this. But the vast majority of advertising can, in fact, show this level of detail quite easily.

BobaFloutist 3y ago
If you know how much to charge me, you know how much to advertise. It's literally that simple.
- uxp100 3y ago
  No. It does depend on where you live. Buying vehicles across state lines is very common and can result in significant differences in price. Doesn’t mean you couldn’t advertise the price as “for residents” or something.
  - gwbas1c 3y ago
    > Buying vehicles across state lines is very common and can result in significant differences in price At least in MA, you have to pay the sales tax in order to register the vehicle. It doesn't matter what state you bought the car in. The regulators aren't letting that loophole slip in. Everyone here goes to NH to skip out on sales taxes, including the regulators that pass the sales taxes.
- legitster 3y ago
  Advertisements don't stop at city limits and zip codes. If I see a promotion in one side of town, the tax could be on the other side.
  - PeterisP 3y ago
    That's not a problem anywhere else - if you have two (or two hundred) locations with different tax rates, just calculate whatever is the highest total, and advertise that - you're definitely allowed to sell stuff for cheaper than you advertised, so if one location has a 2% lower tax rate, you can sell it cheaper there; or you can charge different pre-tax prices so that the total is the same, if that's more profitable for you; I've seen both options used when advertising prices in EU-wide international campaigns despite different VAT rates across EU countries.
  - immibis 3y ago
    So let the billboard say $5+tax. The price tag in the store should still say $5.99 - the state border doesn't go down the middle of the checkout line. If it's online and you know where I live, it should say $5.99 too.
    - pavon 3y ago
      > So let the billboard say $5+tax This is what is done now, and what the FTC/FCC are trying to make illegal. The sticking point is that these specific industries have gotten very creative about what constitutes a tax or government fee, so it isn't as simple for consumers as knowing you have to tack on sales tax.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
quickthrowman 3y ago
My seven county metro area has close to 20 different sales tax rates, depending on the city and county. It’s not as easy as you think.
- taeric 3y ago
  It is far easier than this framing, though. They already have to worry about high variations in every other cost that goes into what they are doing. Heck, running an ad campaign will have variable costs that are also based on location of ad. Which is all to say that dealing with variable costs is part of doing business. That they are currently able to dodge responsibility for some things by attaching them after the fact as "fees" is kind of upsetting to me. Consider if you had them send out a service unit to fix a line in the neighborhood, and they decided to line item send you a fuel bill for the work. Was something they always had to deal with, but finding a way to keep an expense from cutting into profits by directly passing it to users is a touch crazy.
- LiquidSky 3y ago
  >It’s not as easy as you think. It is EXACTLY that easy: "$PRICE + applicable tax". It's truly bizarre to see people here hurling themselves to defend slimy, deceptive business practices and acting like in 2024 this is some utterly complex insoluble problem. And finally: too fucking bad for the businesses. Prices should be completely transparent, consumers should know precisely what they're going to be asked to pay upfront, if that creates a burden for businesses tough shit.
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  I get we are all nerds here who love nothing more than to examine the unlikeliest of edge cases in great depth,and that typically makes us very good at our jobs... but this is all slipping into profound apologist territory. While there are a vast number of people from different localities laws and regulations here,for most people the issue we are trying to solve here is simple and the surcharge is not tax or regulation based. In particular, when buying vehicles dealer surcharges are one massive entry and taxes are a) already separately listed b) in great detail and c) not typically that variable. Similar with various telecom completely BS charges which are variations of "we need this money to actually be profitable" - which is fine as such,you're a business and need to be profitable,cool. But don't make me drive 50km or spend 3 hours signing up based on advertised price and then add on BS surcharges that have nothing to do with local regulation and everything to do with your business and marketing plan. that is the problem we are trying to solve,and again,arguments here seem to veer from "let us definitely let the perfect be enemy of the good and not solve anything until my favourite clever unlikely edge case is addressed" , to "shirley I have a vested interest somewhere to be protesting this much" :) P.s. and then there are Ticketmaster convenience fees and other companies service fees. I want to see somebody stand up and defend them here as a complicated problem and undue business burden and the right thing for the consumer :)
chadash 3y ago
Just make the billboard display the correct price for where the billboard is physically located. If you have a newspaper ad, make the price correct for the main city of distribution.

technofiend 3y ago

Fees that may not be in general waived or avoided should not be broken out from the price. Examples: Ticketmaster "convenience" fees, Las Vegas hotel "resort" fees. AT&T / Comcast / etc "recovery" and other fees. It's disingenuous to tag contributions to the price "fees" so they can be hastily added at or near the end of a transaction, rather than just giving the true cost to a consumer up front. What next? McDonald's $2.00 value menu plus $5.99 Oxygen and Water Fee at checkout?

datameta 3y ago
Ticketmaster "convenience" fees send me the hardest. They mean I'm paying for their convenience of not having a physical location or staff?
chrismcb 3y ago
I once bought a cheap airline ticket online. Skipped the slew of fees they offered... then got to checkout and was charged a ticket purchasing fee!