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That Boeing’s unforced errors have not killed many people on US soil is no excuse for shoddy manufacturing practices. We should no more accept plane doors falli

That Boeing’s unforced errors have not killed many people on US soil is no excuse for shoddy manufacturing practices. We should no more accept plane doors falling off due to mismanagement, than we should accept railroad cars derailing due to mismanagement. Boeing made several billion dollars a year of profits for ten years prior to Covid, but failed to reinvest it in their manufacturing practices to prevent unforced errors, which left unchecked caused a plane to catastrophically decompress in the sky. Their shareholders may think that’s acceptable, but their customers do not.

stouset 3y ago
It is absolutely no excuse for these issues. At the same time, not flying on Boeing planes out of fear of safety is completely irrational.
- luuurker 3y ago
  One needs to ignore a lot of stuff to believe these newer planes are very safe, so I'm not sure if it's completely irrational. You have a long list of fairly recent problems... the stuff around MCAS that killed people, misdrilled holes, loose or missing bolts, debris inside fuel tanks, etc. And the reason why no one died on the Alaska flight was more luck than anything. I'm not sure if everyone would be alive today had it happened later in the flight when some people remove their seat belt.
  - stouset 3y ago
    One needs to look at the data to believe these planes are very safe. Even if one or two people had died on the Alaska incident (which—to be clear—would have been an avoidable tragedy for which Boeing would be responsible), flying on a major airline in the U.S. is still safer than any other form of transportation. You don’t think twice about hopping into a passenger vehicle. You don’t follow the latest NHTSA crash test reports and refuse to hop in an Uber driving the “wrong” make/model vehicle. You notice plane crashes because they are so exceedingly rare while traffic fatalities are so common they’re boring and routine.
    - altairprime 3y ago
      > You don’t think twice about hopping into a passenger vehicle. I think twice quite regularly about hopping into a Tesla, and after years of avoiding them solely for aesthetic dislike, I found that they also have been burying quality control issues rather than repairing them — just like Boeing! — and so I intend to continue avoiding riding in them whenever possible. > You don’t […] refuse to hop in an Uber driving the “wrong” make/model vehicle. I learned how to select the ride level in Uber/Lyft to ensure I don’t get a Tesla. > traffic fatalities are so common they’re boring and routine. Traffic fatalities are unforced errors that I invest most of my energy while driving into avoiding — not just my own errors, but the potential errors of the walking and driving into avoiding. I won’t enter an intersection on the walk signal until I see the car start to decelerate, because I can’t trust that they’ve looked up from their phone long enough to prevent an unforced error that kills me. It’s the same lesson taught by “This vehicle stops at all railroad crossings” and “Don’t sleep under coconut trees”: the odds are slim that diligence saves lives, so remain diligent and occasionally save lives. I am just one life, and while I cannot take every precaution, I can certainly take those precautions that I deem worthwhile. I recognize I’m more likely to die to a Tesla than in a Boeing and I have more precautions assigned to Teslas than I do Boeings. However: if the plane door blows off, I’ll be traumatized even if I live, and I would rather avoid that. As public transit riders, we do not deserve the increased chance of severe traumatic events that Boeing is inflicting on their passengers, onto us, by their shoddy manufacturing and QA.
      - drstewart 3y ago
        [flagged]
        altairprime 3y ago
        > you’re anti-Maxx Well, I was a big fan of the Maxx when it broadcast back of the 90s, I think?, but I haven’t rewatched it since then, so I don’t really have any opinion anymore. Maybe I’ll take a look again, though I admit I don’t follow how it’s related. > I don’t trust Pfizer / Boeing Their Covid vaccine is second to none for me, of all the different vaccines I’ve received since 2015. You’re definitely missing out — I encourage giving them a second chance for your next booster. Is there some financial connection between Pfizer and Boeing that I should be aware of?
PaulHoule 3y ago
I'd add that Americans are characteristically allergic to capital investments which has a lot to do with why we can't have nice things. (For instance, when there was the scandal over card skimmers, Canadian gas stations upgraded their pumps to use chip cards about two years before US gas stations.) Airlines in third world countries are a major buyer of the latest planes whereas American airlines (particularly Delta) are famous for having excellent maintenance operations to keep 20 year old planes in the air.

stouset 3y ago

It is absolutely no excuse for these issues. At the same time, not flying on Boeing planes out of fear of safety is completely irrational.

luuurker 3y ago
One needs to ignore a lot of stuff to believe these newer planes are very safe, so I'm not sure if it's completely irrational. You have a long list of fairly recent problems... the stuff around MCAS that killed people, misdrilled holes, loose or missing bolts, debris inside fuel tanks, etc. And the reason why no one died on the Alaska flight was more luck than anything. I'm not sure if everyone would be alive today had it happened later in the flight when some people remove their seat belt.
- stouset 3y ago
  One needs to look at the data to believe these planes are very safe. Even if one or two people had died on the Alaska incident (which—to be clear—would have been an avoidable tragedy for which Boeing would be responsible), flying on a major airline in the U.S. is still safer than any other form of transportation. You don’t think twice about hopping into a passenger vehicle. You don’t follow the latest NHTSA crash test reports and refuse to hop in an Uber driving the “wrong” make/model vehicle. You notice plane crashes because they are so exceedingly rare while traffic fatalities are so common they’re boring and routine.
  - altairprime 3y ago
    > You don’t think twice about hopping into a passenger vehicle. I think twice quite regularly about hopping into a Tesla, and after years of avoiding them solely for aesthetic dislike, I found that they also have been burying quality control issues rather than repairing them — just like Boeing! — and so I intend to continue avoiding riding in them whenever possible. > You don’t […] refuse to hop in an Uber driving the “wrong” make/model vehicle. I learned how to select the ride level in Uber/Lyft to ensure I don’t get a Tesla. > traffic fatalities are so common they’re boring and routine. Traffic fatalities are unforced errors that I invest most of my energy while driving into avoiding — not just my own errors, but the potential errors of the walking and driving into avoiding. I won’t enter an intersection on the walk signal until I see the car start to decelerate, because I can’t trust that they’ve looked up from their phone long enough to prevent an unforced error that kills me. It’s the same lesson taught by “This vehicle stops at all railroad crossings” and “Don’t sleep under coconut trees”: the odds are slim that diligence saves lives, so remain diligent and occasionally save lives. I am just one life, and while I cannot take every precaution, I can certainly take those precautions that I deem worthwhile. I recognize I’m more likely to die to a Tesla than in a Boeing and I have more precautions assigned to Teslas than I do Boeings. However: if the plane door blows off, I’ll be traumatized even if I live, and I would rather avoid that. As public transit riders, we do not deserve the increased chance of severe traumatic events that Boeing is inflicting on their passengers, onto us, by their shoddy manufacturing and QA.
    - drstewart 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - altairprime 3y ago
        > you’re anti-Maxx Well, I was a big fan of the Maxx when it broadcast back of the 90s, I think?, but I haven’t rewatched it since then, so I don’t really have any opinion anymore. Maybe I’ll take a look again, though I admit I don’t follow how it’s related. > I don’t trust Pfizer / Boeing Their Covid vaccine is second to none for me, of all the different vaccines I’ve received since 2015. You’re definitely missing out — I encourage giving them a second chance for your next booster. Is there some financial connection between Pfizer and Boeing that I should be aware of?

PaulHoule 3y ago

I'd add that Americans are characteristically allergic to capital investments which has a lot to do with why we can't have nice things. (For instance, when there was the scandal over card skimmers, Canadian gas stations upgraded their pumps to use chip cards about two years before US gas stations.) Airlines in third world countries are a major buyer of the latest planes whereas American airlines (particularly Delta) are famous for having excellent maintenance operations to keep 20 year old planes in the air.