4 ms·

A comment that will certainly get me downvoted into oblivion, but I'm always amazed at the amount of time people are willing to waste customizing outdated tools

A comment that will certainly get me downvoted into oblivion, but I'm always amazed at the amount of time people are willing to waste customizing outdated tools to match 10% of the out-of-the-box capabilities of modern IDEs. And it's not even like he ignores the advantages since he uses IntelliJ for Java!

lvass 3y ago
Modern IDEs don't match 10% of Emacs 29's out-of-the box capabilities.
ParetoOptimal 3y ago
Its because editors like emacs don't change on them and personalized workflows can be made smoother or automated. Emacs users believe the tool should be adapted to the user rather than the user adapting to the tool.
cmrdporcupine 3y ago
a) You know you're going to be downvoted and yet b) You still pitch what you're saying in way that is an insult to both the tool and its users. I don't know what to say. Ignorance and antagonism mixed together, consciously... ... Maybe emacs users know something you don't? (FWIW I have been using JetBrains tools' & emacs as well for over a couple decades now [since IntelliJ 3-something back in 2003 if I recall], usually complimentary to each other, not competing. As of last week, I am not renewing my CLion subscription, and work fully in emacs and it's fine.)
deng 3y ago
I'm not downvoting you if you show me a modern IDE that out-of-the-box(!) can do filename completion in the way Martin describes ("type 'articles emacs' to get a list of any file paths that contain 'articles' and 'emacs' in their file path").
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  I believe the JetBrains tools can actually do this (ctrl-shift-N if I recall) and can do it for symbols, filenames, and classes, etc. Keyword match with some fuzzy logic. Though actually I'm not sure if they'll do it on directory name components or just the filename itself. They will, however, have 5x the memory and battery consumption and not be nearly as snappy in response time, nor nearly as customizable.
  - deng 3y ago
    You're right, I think it also can do this with directory components. I think if you'd type some like 'artic/emacs' it would actually work, but I cannot test at the moment. So no downvote from me.
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      Nah, you should downvote... because the comment violated HN decorum guidelines and generally has bad manners?
      - deng 3y ago
        He's not wrong, though. I've been an Emacs user for decades, I'm still using it and I don't regret the time I have invested in it. It motivated me to learn LISP and a ton of other stuff, I love orgmode, calc, Gnus, and I wouldn't want to miss all that. But you have to see what it is good at and where it is severely lacking when it comes to modern software development. When younger developers see me using Emacs and ask me whether they should pick it up, I always say: if you'd like to be enlightened and get a glimpse of how the old LISP machines worked, if you like tinkering with complex systems just for the fun of it, go for it. There's a good chance it'll make you a better software developer eventually. However, if you simply want something that gets the job done, just use VSCode.
        cmrdporcupine 3y ago
        Ok but he is wrong though. a) he's wrong to call it outdated... because that's not the case, it's a very vibrant community and with boatloads of dev happening b) he's wrong to say it only does 10% of blah blah blah -- capability wise my config does pretty much everything I had with CLion/RustRover in terms of my C++/Rust workflow... but also a whole lot more on other fronts c) he's wrong to formulate a comment like that because it's inflammatory and not nice Honestly, futzing with VSCode is pretty much as 'brittle' and 'batteries not included' situation as emacs, though obviously more popular. Every time I went from CLion over to VSCode I just threw my hands up in annoyance. My emacs + lsp + company + rust-analyzer + projectile + treemacs setup works better for me, though obviously that's somewhat because I have 30 years of mild-muscle-memory for emacs keybindings. (Though there is cua-mode, y'know) Would I recommend it for brand new devs, or for my 13-year old son starting out or something? Probably not. But it's really none of my business what tools other people use.
striking 3y ago
If you want Emacs to work as Martin describes out of the box, you can install Doom and enable Ivy completion from the config. From then on, the experience feels pretty modern, while remaining infinitely customizeable in a structured way.
Kototama 3y ago
You think they are outdated because you did not find the cross on the UI to close them once you noticed you actually had to LEARN them to use their power?
- iLoveOncall 3y ago
  I used emacs exclusively for 2 years. It was a slower development process for every single use-case I have ever had, so I stopped using it. Most modern IDEs even come with key mappings for emacs so you can switch instantly and leverage their superior feature set without having to relearn anything.
anthk 3y ago
You'd wish current IDE's could be able to merge something like org-mode, a Jupyiter like notebook and coding utilities in a single tool.
taeric 3y ago
A few features that I think is really hard to explain to folks on why it feels good: * Buffer and frame management. Getting used to splits and quickly bouncing between buffers is something that is a muscle memory, at this point. * Pretty much complete introspection of the editor. All of the help functions, as well as the *Messages* buffer are things that are often very hidden in other editors. * The "all is fair" community. There are some grumpy style folks that use it, of course. I've found that most are far more friendly and open to you doing things however you want than in most other communities. The pedantic nature of a lot of developers falls over into a lot of our entire industry, it is refreshing to find a community that is pragmatic over pedantic to this level.

lvass 3y ago

Modern IDEs don't match 10% of Emacs 29's out-of-the box capabilities.

ParetoOptimal 3y ago

Its because editors like emacs don't change on them and personalized workflows can be made smoother or automated. Emacs users believe the tool should be adapted to the user rather than the user adapting to the tool.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

a) You know you're going to be downvoted and yet b) You still pitch what you're saying in way that is an insult to both the tool and its users. I don't know what to say. Ignorance and antagonism mixed together, consciously... ... Maybe emacs users know something you don't? (FWIW I have been using JetBrains tools' & emacs as well for over a couple decades now [since IntelliJ 3-something back in 2003 if I recall], usually complimentary to each other, not competing. As of last week, I am not renewing my CLion subscription, and work fully in emacs and it's fine.)

deng 3y ago

I'm not downvoting you if you show me a modern IDE that out-of-the-box(!) can do filename completion in the way Martin describes ("type 'articles emacs' to get a list of any file paths that contain 'articles' and 'emacs' in their file path").

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
I believe the JetBrains tools can actually do this (ctrl-shift-N if I recall) and can do it for symbols, filenames, and classes, etc. Keyword match with some fuzzy logic. Though actually I'm not sure if they'll do it on directory name components or just the filename itself. They will, however, have 5x the memory and battery consumption and not be nearly as snappy in response time, nor nearly as customizable.
- deng 3y ago
  You're right, I think it also can do this with directory components. I think if you'd type some like 'artic/emacs' it would actually work, but I cannot test at the moment. So no downvote from me.
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    Nah, you should downvote... because the comment violated HN decorum guidelines and generally has bad manners?
    - deng 3y ago
      He's not wrong, though. I've been an Emacs user for decades, I'm still using it and I don't regret the time I have invested in it. It motivated me to learn LISP and a ton of other stuff, I love orgmode, calc, Gnus, and I wouldn't want to miss all that. But you have to see what it is good at and where it is severely lacking when it comes to modern software development. When younger developers see me using Emacs and ask me whether they should pick it up, I always say: if you'd like to be enlightened and get a glimpse of how the old LISP machines worked, if you like tinkering with complex systems just for the fun of it, go for it. There's a good chance it'll make you a better software developer eventually. However, if you simply want something that gets the job done, just use VSCode.
      - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
        Ok but he is wrong though. a) he's wrong to call it outdated... because that's not the case, it's a very vibrant community and with boatloads of dev happening b) he's wrong to say it only does 10% of blah blah blah -- capability wise my config does pretty much everything I had with CLion/RustRover in terms of my C++/Rust workflow... but also a whole lot more on other fronts c) he's wrong to formulate a comment like that because it's inflammatory and not nice Honestly, futzing with VSCode is pretty much as 'brittle' and 'batteries not included' situation as emacs, though obviously more popular. Every time I went from CLion over to VSCode I just threw my hands up in annoyance. My emacs + lsp + company + rust-analyzer + projectile + treemacs setup works better for me, though obviously that's somewhat because I have 30 years of mild-muscle-memory for emacs keybindings. (Though there is cua-mode, y'know) Would I recommend it for brand new devs, or for my 13-year old son starting out or something? Probably not. But it's really none of my business what tools other people use.

striking 3y ago

If you want Emacs to work as Martin describes out of the box, you can install Doom and enable Ivy completion from the config. From then on, the experience feels pretty modern, while remaining infinitely customizeable in a structured way.

Kototama 3y ago

You think they are outdated because you did not find the cross on the UI to close them once you noticed you actually had to LEARN them to use their power?

iLoveOncall 3y ago
I used emacs exclusively for 2 years. It was a slower development process for every single use-case I have ever had, so I stopped using it. Most modern IDEs even come with key mappings for emacs so you can switch instantly and leverage their superior feature set without having to relearn anything.

anthk 3y ago

You'd wish current IDE's could be able to merge something like org-mode, a Jupyiter like notebook and coding utilities in a single tool.

taeric 3y ago

A few features that I think is really hard to explain to folks on why it feels good: * Buffer and frame management. Getting used to splits and quickly bouncing between buffers is something that is a muscle memory, at this point. * Pretty much complete introspection of the editor. All of the help functions, as well as the *Messages* buffer are things that are often very hidden in other editors. * The "all is fair" community. There are some grumpy style folks that use it, of course. I've found that most are far more friendly and open to you doing things however you want than in most other communities. The pedantic nature of a lot of developers falls over into a lot of our entire industry, it is refreshing to find a community that is pragmatic over pedantic to this level.