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Free market solutions are so simple, elegant, natural and organic...I wonder why ecologists hate it that much...not.

Gigachad 3y ago
The free market solutions are more of a thought experiment than a practical answer. They show how absurdly subsidized driving is. But if you actually implemented them they would make car usage not viable instantly which is too rapid of a change to go down smoothly. The non market legislation solutions like the OP article are a much softer landing which guide people towards the end goal without immediately bankrupting people.
- davstr1 3y ago
  Free market solutions should perhaps be more of a general direction than an absolute goal. > without IMMEDIATELY bankrupting people. Il love the (involuntary ?) irony here ! Indeed, legislation actually bankrupt people. And industries. The automobile industry is now in bad shape thanks to legislation forcing them to adopt EVs. Even with subventions and taxes/norms for "bad behaving" vehicules, people aren't buying 60K electric vehicules... Many profesionals now can't afford to go to Paris due to the punitive politics for cars. (think plumber) People with old cars can't go there anyway. Yes, the poor gets poorer with this. This would go a bit better with an efficient system of public transportation. But since what belongs to everybody belongs to nobody and is taken care of by nobody... And before that they incentived everybody and their dog to buy diesel cars, only to overtax it a few years later... Example exists in every industry. This is a never ending story of politicians taxing and legislating what move and incentising what don't. In their own interests, not yours. Repeat and rinse. Nobody seem to understand that the ones that take decisions (politicians) are often remote from the actual situations, with a set of incentives often misaligned with their targets. Yet understanding this only takes a game of monopoly with friends or family, or just real life experience that everybody have on how people behave even for very small personal gains.
soco 3y ago
I am not aware of any country where there's a free market. As soon as somebody can point me to one, we will see how's the parking space there and take that as a model.
- davstr1 3y ago
  Free market is not an absolute measure, not a 100%, but rather a cursor. A country is rather ruled by free market or by government. Like in "are USA more a free market than Venezuela and North Korea ?" I can't understand why so many people keep on saying "there is no free market", as that's not even an argument. I mean i hope you can get out of this "black or white" void which just cancels any intent of reasoning. Unless it's done on purpose. Here is a list by the way : https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
  - soco 3y ago
    When somebody makes an argument to let the free market do something free, it's quite important to remember that said free market is not free and will definitely not act freely, whether we're talking North Korea or USA. And the Parisian parking places market is definitely not a free market (as we just saw) so we simply cannot have a real talk about "letting the market decide", until same Parisians vote to let them run free. Assuming that was your argument we could talk about such a vote - which by looking at the trends has zero chances to pass. But let's assume for the sake of argument it would pass. Next vote will be then to limit it again because nobody wants a Cayenne parked in the narrow street in front of their little shop windows, either blocking the view or the passage, or the traffic. But again for the sake of the argument let's say we only liberalize the spaces in places where you can actually park bigger cars. Then yes you will be able to park them, but still not put a kebab stand because well a parking space is a parking space by definition, so again you'd need a voting to change that place attribution. And I could go on to show you how all this is in reality very much not free regardless whether you call the French economy a free market or not. It's not a jungle but a city with lots of inter-dependencies and who doesn't like it can, yeah, move someplace else - like in a jungle. And even in a jungle you wouldn't want to park your Cayenne next to the gorillas den. Freedom to do whatever is there only when you're completely alone - or in imagination.

The free market solutions are more of a thought experiment than a practical answer. They show how absurdly subsidized driving is. But if you actually implemented them they would make car usage not viable instantly which is too rapid of a change to go down smoothly. The non market legislation solutions like the OP article are a much softer landing which guide people towards the end goal without immediately bankrupting people.

davstr1 3y ago
Free market solutions should perhaps be more of a general direction than an absolute goal. > without IMMEDIATELY bankrupting people. Il love the (involuntary ?) irony here ! Indeed, legislation actually bankrupt people. And industries. The automobile industry is now in bad shape thanks to legislation forcing them to adopt EVs. Even with subventions and taxes/norms for "bad behaving" vehicules, people aren't buying 60K electric vehicules... Many profesionals now can't afford to go to Paris due to the punitive politics for cars. (think plumber) People with old cars can't go there anyway. Yes, the poor gets poorer with this. This would go a bit better with an efficient system of public transportation. But since what belongs to everybody belongs to nobody and is taken care of by nobody... And before that they incentived everybody and their dog to buy diesel cars, only to overtax it a few years later... Example exists in every industry. This is a never ending story of politicians taxing and legislating what move and incentising what don't. In their own interests, not yours. Repeat and rinse. Nobody seem to understand that the ones that take decisions (politicians) are often remote from the actual situations, with a set of incentives often misaligned with their targets. Yet understanding this only takes a game of monopoly with friends or family, or just real life experience that everybody have on how people behave even for very small personal gains.

soco 3y ago

I am not aware of any country where there's a free market. As soon as somebody can point me to one, we will see how's the parking space there and take that as a model.

davstr1 3y ago
Free market is not an absolute measure, not a 100%, but rather a cursor. A country is rather ruled by free market or by government. Like in "are USA more a free market than Venezuela and North Korea ?" I can't understand why so many people keep on saying "there is no free market", as that's not even an argument. I mean i hope you can get out of this "black or white" void which just cancels any intent of reasoning. Unless it's done on purpose. Here is a list by the way : https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
- soco 3y ago
  When somebody makes an argument to let the free market do something free, it's quite important to remember that said free market is not free and will definitely not act freely, whether we're talking North Korea or USA. And the Parisian parking places market is definitely not a free market (as we just saw) so we simply cannot have a real talk about "letting the market decide", until same Parisians vote to let them run free. Assuming that was your argument we could talk about such a vote - which by looking at the trends has zero chances to pass. But let's assume for the sake of argument it would pass. Next vote will be then to limit it again because nobody wants a Cayenne parked in the narrow street in front of their little shop windows, either blocking the view or the passage, or the traffic. But again for the sake of the argument let's say we only liberalize the spaces in places where you can actually park bigger cars. Then yes you will be able to park them, but still not put a kebab stand because well a parking space is a parking space by definition, so again you'd need a voting to change that place attribution. And I could go on to show you how all this is in reality very much not free regardless whether you call the French economy a free market or not. It's not a jungle but a city with lots of inter-dependencies and who doesn't like it can, yeah, move someplace else - like in a jungle. And even in a jungle you wouldn't want to park your Cayenne next to the gorillas den. Freedom to do whatever is there only when you're completely alone - or in imagination.