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You could also just work less, or let yourself spend less time and energy on your kids. I get that most people recoil in horror at the latter one. I think they

You could also just work less, or let yourself spend less time and energy on your kids. I get that most people recoil in horror at the latter one. I think they're silly. The fact of the matter is the world is a safer and more prosperous place than ever before. You should be able to invest less into your children than your parents did before you and still have them lead happy lives. If you have a child, and your own life isn't a pile of misery, you can be reasonably confident your kid's life won't be either. After all, you grew up in a poorer world than they did. But if you hold back on having children because you fear you can't afford to send them to Yale, or buy them all the Steam games they ever wanted, you're probably not saving them from a life of pain, you're just depriving the world of another soul which could've had a beautiful experience here.

quietbritishjim 3y ago
I wonder if the key issue here is lack of housing in developed countries. Here in the UK, owning a nice house (not just a flat/apartment) in a decent suburb is out of reach for most people who are at the traditional age to have children. That is a problem of lack of land rather than some inherent material cost. With such a vicious fight over the few properties that exist, almost all income is squeezed on that goal, with very little left for other costs of raising children. It also encourages everyone to have a worse work/life balance in a desperate attempt to get more income for housing (but of course it's a zero sum game because that just pushes the prices up for everyone).
- cpursley 3y ago
  > That is a problem of lack of land rather than some inherent material cost. No, this is a problem of poor planning and preventing building up (dense). Plenty of “developed” countries outside of the Anglo world have solved this issue.
  - formerly_proven 3y ago
    I'm not sure about plenty. There's a common structural issue where properties and what you can do with them is controlled by local authorities elected by the locals while locals are also protected from the housing market using rent control. Since the locals already got theirs and experience a lot less of the market pressure non-locals experience, restrictive housing policy follows fairly naturally. This is true for both renting and renter locals.
    - HPsquared 3y ago
      Sounds like a case of "high and low against the middle".
    - cpursley 3y ago
      Restrictive housing is mostly a Western European and NA thing.
- ghusto 3y ago
  The Netherlands has the 17th highest population density in the world, and most of our land is still dotted with water here and there (all very cleverly, but it's still there). There are vast areas of nature reserves, with no building allowed. Most people can afford a house, even in the Randstad. So it's not a lack of land, and it's not development blocking. I'm not suggesting anything else, but though I'd take those two out behind the shed.
bilegeek 3y ago
>let yourself spend less time and energy on your kids >The fact of the matter is the world is a safer >and more prosperous place than ever before. Sadly, it's often not even a matter of safety from "danger", but safety from the law. Getting CPS called on you[1][2], or getting arrested[3][4] as a parent is not good, even if you are fortunate enough to win. Then there's the whole angle of disappearing third places, lack of places that can be reasonably visited without driving privileges, nobody's outside because of all of the above so there's nobody to "hang out" or "play" with, desire to funnel kids/teens into more "productive" activities like academics and sports (depending on affluence and interest, this isn't AS bad as the above points), places outright banning[5] young people, etc etc. [1]https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2018/09/05/mom-parenting-police-free-range-neglect-children-column/1156144002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2018/09/05/mom... [2]https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/13/living/feat-maryland-free-range-parenting-family-under-investigation-again/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/13/living/feat-maryland-free-ran... [3]https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/07/arrested-for-letting-a-9-year-old-play-at-the-park-alone/374436/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/07/arreste... [4]https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-mom-accused-of-leaving-kids-at-food-court-during-job-interview/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-mom-accused-of-leaving-ki... [5]https://www.businessinsider.com/teen-bans-curfews-malls-theme-parks-chick-fil-a-2023-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/teen-bans-curfews-malls-them...
moaf 3y ago
> You could also just work less, or let yourself spend less time and energy on your kids. When nearing end of life, many people, especially fathers, say they wish they'd dedicated more time to their children rather than work. While meaningful work can provide purpose, it doesn't compare to the happiness derived from building meaningful relationships with loved ones. Children offer a rare opportunity to enjoy one of the deepest forms of human connection available, and I think it's shortsighted to put career advancement over building a family. Balancing work and family life is challenging, but the payoff is well worth it.
- hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
  There are actually people who think to themselves, "Oh, no. Distant future me might feel bad, because future me brought beings into existence that were so delightful, that DFM felt spending those extra hours chasing dollars instead of spending those extra hours playing with them was a bad move in retrospect. Maybe I should rethink my plans to have them in the first place." As stupid at it sounds when you put it into those terms, stripped of the fancy talk about "human connection" and whatever. As if no connection at all is preferable to a slightly dissatisfactory one. I don't give a shit what some old man version of me might end up regretting on this front. My kids deserve to be born because life for them is probably going to be great and filled with joy and adventure, with or without me.
hotpotamus 3y ago
Perhaps more people are living in piles of misery - it seems that anxiety and depression levels only increase. I see many people try to write this off as some artifact of data/survey or other, and yet, fertility also seems to trend inexorably down. Maybe your beautiful experience of life is more the exception than the rule; certainly that is not how I would describe my life experience.

quietbritishjim 3y ago

I wonder if the key issue here is lack of housing in developed countries. Here in the UK, owning a nice house (not just a flat/apartment) in a decent suburb is out of reach for most people who are at the traditional age to have children. That is a problem of lack of land rather than some inherent material cost. With such a vicious fight over the few properties that exist, almost all income is squeezed on that goal, with very little left for other costs of raising children. It also encourages everyone to have a worse work/life balance in a desperate attempt to get more income for housing (but of course it's a zero sum game because that just pushes the prices up for everyone).

cpursley 3y ago
> That is a problem of lack of land rather than some inherent material cost. No, this is a problem of poor planning and preventing building up (dense). Plenty of “developed” countries outside of the Anglo world have solved this issue.
- formerly_proven 3y ago
  I'm not sure about plenty. There's a common structural issue where properties and what you can do with them is controlled by local authorities elected by the locals while locals are also protected from the housing market using rent control. Since the locals already got theirs and experience a lot less of the market pressure non-locals experience, restrictive housing policy follows fairly naturally. This is true for both renting and renter locals.
  - HPsquared 3y ago
    Sounds like a case of "high and low against the middle".
  - cpursley 3y ago
    Restrictive housing is mostly a Western European and NA thing.
ghusto 3y ago
The Netherlands has the 17th highest population density in the world, and most of our land is still dotted with water here and there (all very cleverly, but it's still there). There are vast areas of nature reserves, with no building allowed. Most people can afford a house, even in the Randstad. So it's not a lack of land, and it's not development blocking. I'm not suggesting anything else, but though I'd take those two out behind the shed.

bilegeek 3y ago

>let yourself spend less time and energy on your kids >The fact of the matter is the world is a safer >and more prosperous place than ever before. Sadly, it's often not even a matter of safety from "danger", but safety from the law. Getting CPS called on you[1][2], or getting arrested[3][4] as a parent is not good, even if you are fortunate enough to win. Then there's the whole angle of disappearing third places, lack of places that can be reasonably visited without driving privileges, nobody's outside because of all of the above so there's nobody to "hang out" or "play" with, desire to funnel kids/teens into more "productive" activities like academics and sports (depending on affluence and interest, this isn't AS bad as the above points), places outright banning[5] young people, etc etc. [1]https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2018/09/05/mom-parenting-police-free-range-neglect-children-column/1156144002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2018/09/05/mom... [2]https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/13/living/feat-maryland-free-range-parenting-family-under-investigation-again/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/13/living/feat-maryland-free-ran... [3]https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/07/arrested-for-letting-a-9-year-old-play-at-the-park-alone/374436/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/07/arreste... [4]https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-mom-accused-of-leaving-kids-at-food-court-during-job-interview/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-mom-accused-of-leaving-ki... [5]https://www.businessinsider.com/teen-bans-curfews-malls-theme-parks-chick-fil-a-2023-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/teen-bans-curfews-malls-them...

moaf 3y ago

> You could also just work less, or let yourself spend less time and energy on your kids. When nearing end of life, many people, especially fathers, say they wish they'd dedicated more time to their children rather than work. While meaningful work can provide purpose, it doesn't compare to the happiness derived from building meaningful relationships with loved ones. Children offer a rare opportunity to enjoy one of the deepest forms of human connection available, and I think it's shortsighted to put career advancement over building a family. Balancing work and family life is challenging, but the payoff is well worth it.

hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
There are actually people who think to themselves, "Oh, no. Distant future me might feel bad, because future me brought beings into existence that were so delightful, that DFM felt spending those extra hours chasing dollars instead of spending those extra hours playing with them was a bad move in retrospect. Maybe I should rethink my plans to have them in the first place." As stupid at it sounds when you put it into those terms, stripped of the fancy talk about "human connection" and whatever. As if no connection at all is preferable to a slightly dissatisfactory one. I don't give a shit what some old man version of me might end up regretting on this front. My kids deserve to be born because life for them is probably going to be great and filled with joy and adventure, with or without me.

hotpotamus 3y ago

Perhaps more people are living in piles of misery - it seems that anxiety and depression levels only increase. I see many people try to write this off as some artifact of data/survey or other, and yet, fertility also seems to trend inexorably down. Maybe your beautiful experience of life is more the exception than the rule; certainly that is not how I would describe my life experience.