4 ms·

And then you move the car to the maker for a simple maintenance task and, surprise bill.

0xEF 3y ago
If I'm hacking something I own, it's also highly likely that I am capable of fixing it and doing any needed maintenance. Part of the hacker mindset is not letting the fear of voiding a warranty stop you from truly owning the product you paid for.
- nmeofthestate 3y ago
  Hacking a linux box using USB tricks and maintaining the mechanics of a car - probably not a huge skills overlap there. But I doubt he's going to be in trouble when getting the car serviced. If he is worried he could roll back any changes before sending it in.
  - BenjiWiebe 3y ago
    There's more of a mindset overlap.
- stavros 3y ago
  No. It doesn't matter. You can hack something you own as much as you want, and you're paying the manufacturer to do maintenance on it. If you want then to change the brakes, whether your infotainment system is hacked or not is exactly none of their business.
holgerschurig 3y ago
Well, in most sane countries "surprise bills" are illegal. If I bring my car for maintenance and we agree on checking brake fluid and air filters, they cannot decide "Oh, the profiles of the tires are off, we'll change them". No one would need to pay them for this, as it was not agreed upon and is therefore not part of a contract. So your case makes no sense at all. Except that perhaps you life in an insane country, or are not well versed in basic contract law :-)
nextlevelwizard 3y ago
What is a "simple maintenance task" that requires you to bring the car in at the manufacturer?
- pvaldes 3y ago
  All brands have an associated net of official dealers to provide post-sale services.
  - nextlevelwizard 3y ago
    Such as?
    - pvaldes 3y ago
      Such as guarantees, recalls, offers, campaigns, financing, leasing, standard maintenance, buying original parts, upgrading software, downloading GPS maps, resetting the addblue, refilling your particle filter liquid, changing belts, buying extra power for some time... I thing that the term is pretty self-explainable. Every support that the customer could request from the brand after the sale. Some of this things can be provided by anybody, other only by the brand.
      - nextlevelwizard 3y ago
        Most of these can be provided by any car shop (usually a lot cheaper than the manufacturer) and you don’t need to involve the manufacturer and rest are not things any normal person cares about.
        pvaldes 3y ago
        > Most of these can be provided by any car shop But not all. I had never meet a single car owner that spend solid money in their new car and then decline the maker guarantee, but your definition of what is "normal people" may differ from mine.
stavros 3y ago
What would the bill be for? "Changing stuff you own"? When did we wholly give ourselves up to the idea that the manufacturer owns the stuff we bought, and they can penalize us for messing with their things?
- pvaldes 3y ago
  They will see malware in the ECU. If a system is compromised by "obvious malware", other systems could be also. If there is a possible danger for your physical integrity any sensible worker will worry and take actions, specially before it evolves into a legal danger for them. They will not hesitate to change the Electronic Control module and maybe the BSI also, just to be sure that your car don't fails in the worse moment and kills you. This could start at 1500 euro or much more depending on the brand. They will not understand your "right" to run Doom in your car. Think also that currently some secondary car systems in many brands can be deactivated online, without creating a situation of danger for you, but making your driving experience really miserable if they want.
  - stavros 3y ago
    > They will not hesitate to change the Electronic Control module and maybe the BSI also, just to be sure. "I didn't authorize that, I'm not paying for it, please give me my car back the way it was."
    - pvaldes 3y ago
      They will bill for the time lost chasing md5sums at least. You need to understand that cars are a bunch of computers now; but a laptop is not expected to kill you, and a car will. The risks associated with messing with the car are much higher. And if you think that, lets say "BMW", will hesitate a second to block online your car heating in the middle of winter; think again. I had seen it before. Even if you could hack it, to reconfigure the system again is not always easy or obvious without some knowledge of what values you need to enter.
      - 3y ago
rickdeckard 3y ago
Surprise bill for at best "the checksum didn't match so we gave ourselves another paid workorder to investigate the filesystem of your headunit"? It's more likely that you get it back with a new software (and all your modifications wiped), because as part of the routine maintenance some blue-collar technician connects a USB-dongle and blindly upgrades the firmware. Unless of course, the modification is so popular that searching for it becomes part of the vendors routine maintenance protocol...
seagulls 3y ago
Complete nonsense. The fact I disabled OnStar on my vehicles, for example, is an interesting point of conversation only when I bring them in for an oil change. They happily show me the diagnostic codes it produces and could not care less about it, nor could I.
- pvaldes 3y ago
  Your mileage may vary. Each brand is different. The idea of "Hacking" cars feels great until you realize that this cars are driving in the same road as you Hobbyist car hackers is a group filled with overconfidence, and overconfidence can lead easily to a hell of pain and a million of ways to shoot yourself in the face. Because electronic sensors tend to be connected with other sensors, that are connected with many other unsuspected things, and those last things can be more important that it seems.

0xEF 3y ago

If I'm hacking something I own, it's also highly likely that I am capable of fixing it and doing any needed maintenance. Part of the hacker mindset is not letting the fear of voiding a warranty stop you from truly owning the product you paid for.

nmeofthestate 3y ago
Hacking a linux box using USB tricks and maintaining the mechanics of a car - probably not a huge skills overlap there. But I doubt he's going to be in trouble when getting the car serviced. If he is worried he could roll back any changes before sending it in.
- BenjiWiebe 3y ago
  There's more of a mindset overlap.
stavros 3y ago
No. It doesn't matter. You can hack something you own as much as you want, and you're paying the manufacturer to do maintenance on it. If you want then to change the brakes, whether your infotainment system is hacked or not is exactly none of their business.

holgerschurig 3y ago

Well, in most sane countries "surprise bills" are illegal. If I bring my car for maintenance and we agree on checking brake fluid and air filters, they cannot decide "Oh, the profiles of the tires are off, we'll change them". No one would need to pay them for this, as it was not agreed upon and is therefore not part of a contract. So your case makes no sense at all. Except that perhaps you life in an insane country, or are not well versed in basic contract law :-)

nextlevelwizard 3y ago

What is a "simple maintenance task" that requires you to bring the car in at the manufacturer?

pvaldes 3y ago
All brands have an associated net of official dealers to provide post-sale services.
- nextlevelwizard 3y ago
  Such as?
  - pvaldes 3y ago
    Such as guarantees, recalls, offers, campaigns, financing, leasing, standard maintenance, buying original parts, upgrading software, downloading GPS maps, resetting the addblue, refilling your particle filter liquid, changing belts, buying extra power for some time... I thing that the term is pretty self-explainable. Every support that the customer could request from the brand after the sale. Some of this things can be provided by anybody, other only by the brand.
    - nextlevelwizard 3y ago
      Most of these can be provided by any car shop (usually a lot cheaper than the manufacturer) and you don’t need to involve the manufacturer and rest are not things any normal person cares about.
      - pvaldes 3y ago
        > Most of these can be provided by any car shop But not all. I had never meet a single car owner that spend solid money in their new car and then decline the maker guarantee, but your definition of what is "normal people" may differ from mine.

stavros 3y ago

What would the bill be for? "Changing stuff you own"? When did we wholly give ourselves up to the idea that the manufacturer owns the stuff we bought, and they can penalize us for messing with their things?

pvaldes 3y ago
They will see malware in the ECU. If a system is compromised by "obvious malware", other systems could be also. If there is a possible danger for your physical integrity any sensible worker will worry and take actions, specially before it evolves into a legal danger for them. They will not hesitate to change the Electronic Control module and maybe the BSI also, just to be sure that your car don't fails in the worse moment and kills you. This could start at 1500 euro or much more depending on the brand. They will not understand your "right" to run Doom in your car. Think also that currently some secondary car systems in many brands can be deactivated online, without creating a situation of danger for you, but making your driving experience really miserable if they want.
- stavros 3y ago
  > They will not hesitate to change the Electronic Control module and maybe the BSI also, just to be sure. "I didn't authorize that, I'm not paying for it, please give me my car back the way it was."
  - pvaldes 3y ago
    They will bill for the time lost chasing md5sums at least. You need to understand that cars are a bunch of computers now; but a laptop is not expected to kill you, and a car will. The risks associated with messing with the car are much higher. And if you think that, lets say "BMW", will hesitate a second to block online your car heating in the middle of winter; think again. I had seen it before. Even if you could hack it, to reconfigure the system again is not always easy or obvious without some knowledge of what values you need to enter.
    - 3y ago

rickdeckard 3y ago

Surprise bill for at best "the checksum didn't match so we gave ourselves another paid workorder to investigate the filesystem of your headunit"? It's more likely that you get it back with a new software (and all your modifications wiped), because as part of the routine maintenance some blue-collar technician connects a USB-dongle and blindly upgrades the firmware. Unless of course, the modification is so popular that searching for it becomes part of the vendors routine maintenance protocol...

seagulls 3y ago

Complete nonsense. The fact I disabled OnStar on my vehicles, for example, is an interesting point of conversation only when I bring them in for an oil change. They happily show me the diagnostic codes it produces and could not care less about it, nor could I.

pvaldes 3y ago
Your mileage may vary. Each brand is different. The idea of "Hacking" cars feels great until you realize that this cars are driving in the same road as you Hobbyist car hackers is a group filled with overconfidence, and overconfidence can lead easily to a hell of pain and a million of ways to shoot yourself in the face. Because electronic sensors tend to be connected with other sensors, that are connected with many other unsuspected things, and those last things can be more important that it seems.