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> That's a bit like saying, "Remove the concept of putting on running shoes and warming up and only require that I run a marathon and I'm FAR quicker." It's no

by coffee 14y ago

> That's a bit like saying, "Remove the concept of putting on running shoes and warming up and only require that I run a marathon and I'm FAR quicker." It's not at all like saying that. Feel free to keep your words out of my mouth :) > ...is insignificant compared to the time it takes to learn Cocoa. I see you've changed from using the word "easy" to the word "learn." That's a step in the right direction :) Though, we are not comparing the time it takes to learn Cocoa vs. Objective-C. That was NOT the crux of my comment. Again, you're missing the point (you seem to be very talented at this). The comparison is with Ruby ;)

chc 14y ago
I know you aren't comparing the time it takes to learn Cocoa vs. Objective-C. My point is that if you did make the comparison, you'd realize that if you have the time to learn Cocoa, you have the time to learn Objective-C, because the latter takes basically no time compared to the former. You get a time savings of like 0.05% by learning MacRuby instead of Objective-C.
- coffee 14y ago
  No hostility :) You're just on the defensive, so it feels like hostility. It's understandable... > My point is that if you did make the comparison... But I didn't. I never compared the two. My statement was one of a speed gain by simply using the languages/tools you're most familiar with, instead of learning new languages/tools. It cuts out a lot of time, it's not a hard concept to understand ;)
  - chc 14y ago
    > No hostility :) > You're just on the defensive, so it feels like hostility. It's understandable... Really, no. I don't know if it's intentional or not, but you come across as very passive-aggressive and condescending. I don't even know what it is I'm supposed to be "on the defensive" about — the fact that learning Objective-C takes much less time than learning Cocoa? I feel pretty secure in that knowledge. > But I didn't. > I never compared the two. Yes, that is my point — your opinion has no sense of scale, because you haven't compared the two. You're talking about saving pennies on the price of a sports car. I just don't think it's a particularly pressing concern. If you're that worried about pennies, you're probably not in a position to buy that car. But, you know, whatever works for you.
    - grey-area 14y ago
      Apparently the disconnect here comes because you think of a language as trivial (as compared to an API), however it's often hard to separate the language (syntax, and its built in methods), and the libraries which make up an API/standard library. In addition to the cost of learning a library/language, there is also a day to day cost in using it - a certain friction which encourages you to take some paths and not others. A language and the available tools constrains the way you think about problems you are solving, and in some cases might dictate the sort of solutions you come up with. For example, consider using regular expressions in Ruby to check a string - puts "The limits of my language define the limits of my world" if string =~ /foobar(\d*\w)/ or in Objective C: NSError *error = NULL; NSRegularExpression *regex = [NSRegularExpression regularExpressionWithPattern:@"foobar(\\d*\\w)" options:NSRegularExpressionCaseInsensitive error:&error]; NSTextCheckingResult *match = [regex firstMatchInString:string options:0 range:NSMakeRange(0, [string length])]; if (match) { NSLog(@"The limits of my language define the limits of my world - Wittgenstein") } Until quite recently it wasn't even possible to do this in ObjC without an external library.
      - chc 14y ago
        I don't understand how this relates to anything I've said. How is this meant to show that the time it would take to learn Objective-C while you're learning Cocoa is prohibitive? Actually, I think your code examples support my point. You're not contrasting Ruby and Objective-C, you're contrasting Ruby's standard library with the Objective-C library Foundation, which is what you need to learn to get any real use out of MacRuby/RubyMotion. Here's the MacRuby/Cocoa version of that code: error = Pointer.new_with_type '@' regex = NSRegularExpression.regularExpressionWithPattern("foobar(\\d*\\w)", options: NSRegularExpressionCaseInsensitive error: error) match = regex.firstMatchInString(string, options: 0, range: NSMakeRange(0, string.length)) NSLog "The limits of my language define the limits of my world - Wittgenstein" if match Do you really feel that Objective-C is the biggest difference between the three examples? BTW, if it sounds like I'm trying to say RubyMotion is pointless, I'm not. I'm just saying that "I don't want to go to the trouble of learning Objective-C" is a weak reason to use RubyMotion, because you'll have to do 99.95% of the same work anyway.

by coffee 14y ago

chc 14y ago

I know you aren't comparing the time it takes to learn Cocoa vs. Objective-C. My point is that if you did make the comparison, you'd realize that if you have the time to learn Cocoa, you have the time to learn Objective-C, because the latter takes basically no time compared to the former. You get a time savings of like 0.05% by learning MacRuby instead of Objective-C.

coffee 14y ago
No hostility :) You're just on the defensive, so it feels like hostility. It's understandable... > My point is that if you did make the comparison... But I didn't. I never compared the two. My statement was one of a speed gain by simply using the languages/tools you're most familiar with, instead of learning new languages/tools. It cuts out a lot of time, it's not a hard concept to understand ;)
- chc 14y ago
  > No hostility :) > You're just on the defensive, so it feels like hostility. It's understandable... Really, no. I don't know if it's intentional or not, but you come across as very passive-aggressive and condescending. I don't even know what it is I'm supposed to be "on the defensive" about — the fact that learning Objective-C takes much less time than learning Cocoa? I feel pretty secure in that knowledge. > But I didn't. > I never compared the two. Yes, that is my point — your opinion has no sense of scale, because you haven't compared the two. You're talking about saving pennies on the price of a sports car. I just don't think it's a particularly pressing concern. If you're that worried about pennies, you're probably not in a position to buy that car. But, you know, whatever works for you.
  - grey-area 14y ago
    Apparently the disconnect here comes because you think of a language as trivial (as compared to an API), however it's often hard to separate the language (syntax, and its built in methods), and the libraries which make up an API/standard library. In addition to the cost of learning a library/language, there is also a day to day cost in using it - a certain friction which encourages you to take some paths and not others. A language and the available tools constrains the way you think about problems you are solving, and in some cases might dictate the sort of solutions you come up with. For example, consider using regular expressions in Ruby to check a string - puts "The limits of my language define the limits of my world" if string =~ /foobar(\d*\w)/ or in Objective C: NSError *error = NULL; NSRegularExpression *regex = [NSRegularExpression regularExpressionWithPattern:@"foobar(\\d*\\w)" options:NSRegularExpressionCaseInsensitive error:&error]; NSTextCheckingResult *match = [regex firstMatchInString:string options:0 range:NSMakeRange(0, [string length])]; if (match) { NSLog(@"The limits of my language define the limits of my world - Wittgenstein") } Until quite recently it wasn't even possible to do this in ObjC without an external library.
    - chc 14y ago
      I don't understand how this relates to anything I've said. How is this meant to show that the time it would take to learn Objective-C while you're learning Cocoa is prohibitive? Actually, I think your code examples support my point. You're not contrasting Ruby and Objective-C, you're contrasting Ruby's standard library with the Objective-C library Foundation, which is what you need to learn to get any real use out of MacRuby/RubyMotion. Here's the MacRuby/Cocoa version of that code: error = Pointer.new_with_type '@' regex = NSRegularExpression.regularExpressionWithPattern("foobar(\\d*\\w)", options: NSRegularExpressionCaseInsensitive error: error) match = regex.firstMatchInString(string, options: 0, range: NSMakeRange(0, string.length)) NSLog "The limits of my language define the limits of my world - Wittgenstein" if match Do you really feel that Objective-C is the biggest difference between the three examples? BTW, if it sounds like I'm trying to say RubyMotion is pointless, I'm not. I'm just saying that "I don't want to go to the trouble of learning Objective-C" is a weak reason to use RubyMotion, because you'll have to do 99.95% of the same work anyway.