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Every book about the nature of consciousness has problems. It's not a solved problem. For me it wasn't the details but just laying out the landscape and I cou

Every book about the nature of consciousness has problems. It's not a solved problem. For me it wasn't the details but just laying out the landscape and I could see how to get there from here, if that makes sense.

bbor 3y ago
Beautifully put! I recommend “Kants System of Perspectives” by Palmquist, it’s free online, short/skimmable, and explains in detail how Kant (200y ago!) was trying to do exactly this; acknowledge the unknowable parts of the problem, and instead focus on reasoning out the “landscape” or structure of it
- FabHK 3y ago
  What an unexpected connection: Stephen Palmquist used to run the Hong Kong Philosophy Café, until he left the city recently, possibly in the wake of the political changes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Palmquist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Palmquist Here's the free online book you alluded to: http://staffweb.hkbu.edu.hk/ppp/ksp1/toc.html http://staffweb.hkbu.edu.hk/ppp/ksp1/toc.html
  - strogonoff 3y ago
    Does anything like Philosophy Café exist in that city nowadays?
    - FabHK 3y ago
      Hi, yes, the HK Philosophy Café is still around! [1] There's also HK Skeptics in the Pub. [2] There was a Café Scientifique, but it closed down. Then there's some Book groups that tend to discuss non-fiction. [3] Hope to see you! [1] There's a WA group, but I don't have the invite link. Meta: https://www.facebook.com/groups/6834551586589131/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/6834551586589131/ and https://www.instagram.com/hkpc2023 https://www.instagram.com/hkpc2023 [2] Meetup: https://www.meetup.com/skeptics-in-the-pub-hk/ https://www.meetup.com/skeptics-in-the-pub-hk/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/hkskeptics https://twitter.com/hkskeptics [3] Meetup: https://www.meetup.com/byobook-meetup-group/ https://www.meetup.com/byobook-meetup-group/
      - strogonoff 3y ago
        Hugely appreciated. Judging by the description on Skeptics I’d expect strongly Kantian views to not be very well received (they don’t particularly align with physicalism, and I find when people mention “science” they typically mean physicalism/materialistic monism), but who knows!
adastra22 3y ago
I wish people wouldn't parrot the "it's not a solved problem" line. There are an abundance of solutions: take your pick.
- empath-nirvana 3y ago
  That's sort of the definition of not being solved. If there was a solution, there would be one of them.
  - adastra22 3y ago
    It's untestable. You cannot experimentally measure qualia, so there is no real way to differentiate between these theories. But any one of them fully explain the phenomenon, without resorting to nonsensical quantum woo.
anon291 3y ago
I'm not arguing about the nature of consciousness. I'm just pointing out it's not the same as qualia. I am 100 percent sure animals experience the sensation of qualia. I don't know if they are conscious. Same with newborns. It's unclear. Qualia has nothing to do with awareness of oneself. It's different altogether. If Hofstadter's book were right, it explains only consciousness. To put it another way.. he may really truly be a strange loop but what is the feeling of being a strange loop?

bbor 3y ago

Beautifully put! I recommend “Kants System of Perspectives” by Palmquist, it’s free online, short/skimmable, and explains in detail how Kant (200y ago!) was trying to do exactly this; acknowledge the unknowable parts of the problem, and instead focus on reasoning out the “landscape” or structure of it

FabHK 3y ago
What an unexpected connection: Stephen Palmquist used to run the Hong Kong Philosophy Café, until he left the city recently, possibly in the wake of the political changes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Palmquist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Palmquist Here's the free online book you alluded to: http://staffweb.hkbu.edu.hk/ppp/ksp1/toc.html http://staffweb.hkbu.edu.hk/ppp/ksp1/toc.html
- strogonoff 3y ago
  Does anything like Philosophy Café exist in that city nowadays?
  - FabHK 3y ago
    Hi, yes, the HK Philosophy Café is still around! [1] There's also HK Skeptics in the Pub. [2] There was a Café Scientifique, but it closed down. Then there's some Book groups that tend to discuss non-fiction. [3] Hope to see you! [1] There's a WA group, but I don't have the invite link. Meta: https://www.facebook.com/groups/6834551586589131/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/6834551586589131/ and https://www.instagram.com/hkpc2023 https://www.instagram.com/hkpc2023 [2] Meetup: https://www.meetup.com/skeptics-in-the-pub-hk/ https://www.meetup.com/skeptics-in-the-pub-hk/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/hkskeptics https://twitter.com/hkskeptics [3] Meetup: https://www.meetup.com/byobook-meetup-group/ https://www.meetup.com/byobook-meetup-group/
    - strogonoff 3y ago
      Hugely appreciated. Judging by the description on Skeptics I’d expect strongly Kantian views to not be very well received (they don’t particularly align with physicalism, and I find when people mention “science” they typically mean physicalism/materialistic monism), but who knows!

adastra22 3y ago

I wish people wouldn't parrot the "it's not a solved problem" line. There are an abundance of solutions: take your pick.

empath-nirvana 3y ago
That's sort of the definition of not being solved. If there was a solution, there would be one of them.
- adastra22 3y ago
  It's untestable. You cannot experimentally measure qualia, so there is no real way to differentiate between these theories. But any one of them fully explain the phenomenon, without resorting to nonsensical quantum woo.

anon291 3y ago

I'm not arguing about the nature of consciousness. I'm just pointing out it's not the same as qualia. I am 100 percent sure animals experience the sensation of qualia. I don't know if they are conscious. Same with newborns. It's unclear. Qualia has nothing to do with awareness of oneself. It's different altogether. If Hofstadter's book were right, it explains only consciousness. To put it another way.. he may really truly be a strange loop but what is the feeling of being a strange loop?