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The biggest problem with these bans is that "single use" bags almost never are. Everyone I know reuses them for various things, and not just as bags. The case

The biggest problem with these bans is that "single use" bags almost never are. Everyone I know reuses them for various things, and not just as bags. The case against plastic bags is straightforward. Plastic pollution kills at least 100,000 marine mammals and 1 million seabirds every year and entanglement in plastic and other types of litter kills roughly 1,000 turtles per year. That's something for littering laws to deal with.

manmal 3y ago
Every country has littering laws, and they don’t work.
- dotancohen 3y ago
  You mean that they are not effectively enforced.
  - rabuse 3y ago
    How would you enforce them?
    - michaelt 3y ago
      We'll simply put a serial number on every single-use plastic bag, and link it to a government-issued photo ID card when you accept the bag. There will be a mobile app allowing you to register the transfer of a registered plastic bag to another citizen, possibly using the blockchain. The police will then arrest the owners of lost bags in their copious free time. /s
    - mixmastamyk 3y ago
      The “perp” is given a ticket. Comes with a fine that helps pay for further enforcement.
      - manmal 3y ago
        So we need to hire more police just to mitigate littering? Doesn’t sound like a smart solution tbh.
        mixmastamyk 3y ago
        In the short term yes, but probably not their only duty. Want the problem solved in the real world or not? Hoping doesn't work, as has been demonstrated. Also, in country where societal trust has broken down, it could only be successful as part of a larger strategy to fix that first. Presumably after a culture of cleanliness takes hold, "litter enforcement" would drop off.
        manmal 3y ago
        I think it’s smarter to just ban packaging that will be around 100+ years.
ezzaf 3y ago
They may get reused, but the data shows that: * Sales of bin liners (for example) do not significantly increase when single use plastic bags are banned * Plastic bag litter is significantly reduced. If you want less litter, banning single use plastic bags is a great way to achieve that Sources https://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/curious-canberra/2017-08-28/does-a-plastic-bag-ban-cause-a-spike-in-the-use-of-bin-bags/8819504 https://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/curious-canberra/2017-0... https://www.parliament.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/1257838/Unfantastic-Plastic-Review-of-the-ACT-Plastic-Shopping-Bag-Ban,-dated-August-2018.pdf https://www.parliament.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/000...
- Nition 3y ago
  Personally I can say I switched to just not lining the bin after the plastic bag ban. I have a separate compost bin for food scraps so the main bin mostly doesn't get too dirty, and if it does get some liquid or whatever on it, a quick rinse with the hose fixes that.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    Yuck that would not work here in Spain.. you'd have cockroaches all over. And I don't have a place to hose things down :(
  - prawn 3y ago
    We use a paper bag (from grocery deliveries) as our general household waste bin under the sink. Also under the sink are a compost bin and then a recycling tub. The compost and recycling tubs fill up far faster than the general waste bag.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  The evidence regarding sales of bin liners is mixed: > The study found California communities with bag policies saw sales of 4-gallon trash bags increase by 55% to 75%, and sales of 8-gallon trash bags increase 87% to 110%. These results echo earlier studies that also showed increases in sales of smaller plastic trash bags. But while sales of small garbage bags jumped after policies were implemented, sales of larger 13-gallon trash bags -- the size often found in kitchen trash cans -- remained relatively unchanged. [1] 1: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/03/220329142327.htm#:~:text=The%20study%20found%20California%20communities,of%20smaller%20plastic%20trash%20bags https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/03/220329142327.h....
tptacek 3y ago
Yes. You can find a bunch of estimates for how many times you have to reuse a canvas bag for the environmental cost of its production to net out. You generally have a choice between plastics, paper, and fabric, and fabric seems to be the worst of all the options, and the one the plastic ban encourages. I think I like the approach I see in Chicagoland, which is just to charge for the plastic bags. (We keep all our plastic bags, but then, we have two dogs).
- chasil 3y ago
  Tyvek bags get sold commonly in my area, and Tyvek does not survive a standard washing machine cycle. A canvas bag used for groceries should be washed between each use.
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    I wonder what the environmental impact of washing a bag 100 times is, compared to 100 single-use plastic bags (which may be reused as trash bags).
  - loeg 3y ago
    I can't imagine washing a grocery bag between every use. Why?
    - chasil 3y ago
      Salmonella are endemic to chicken. E. Coli have also been found in reusable bags. Fungus and yeasts are also a problem. You don't want these on your salad greens, fruits, or vegetables. Reusing the bags without washing risks exposure to pathogens. https://polymerinnovationblog.com/reusable-grocery-bags-may-pose-a-health-risk-the-scientific-evidence/ https://polymerinnovationblog.com/reusable-grocery-bags-may-...
      - littlestymaar 3y ago
        Somewhere else in this discussion you posted a study financed by a plastic industry lobby, and now from a plastic chemistry blog, don't you see a pattern?
chasil 3y ago
Another major problem is that bag bans have been found in studies to result in bacteriological infection spikes. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/plastic-bag-ban_n_2641430 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/plastic-bag-ban_n_2641430 For myself, I (re)use these as trash bags, so I hope the ban never reaches my community. My grocery store also has a used bag deposit.
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  > authors received monetary support from the American Chemistry Council, a trade group representing the interests of plastic bag manufacturers. End of the joke.
  - chasil 3y ago
    The joke could be on you. https://www.health.ny.gov/publications/2827/ https://www.health.ny.gov/publications/2827/
    - littlestymaar 3y ago
      Do you really clean your fridge weekly according to official recommendations? Would you recommend to stop using fridges since listeria can proliferate in fridges that aren't regularly cleaned and people don't wash their fridge often enough to be safe? Then why do you bring this kind of recommendation as an argument against reusable bags?
      - chasil 3y ago
        I'm not recommending for unusable bags. What I'm saying is that the risk profile is transferred.
        littlestymaar 3y ago
        > What I'm saying is that the risk profile is transferred And I'm saying it's mostly BS made up by the plastic industry to muddy the water. On the one hand you have a real, significant risk to the environment. On the other hand, you have a “risk” that doesn't really exist unless your immune system is depressed and is the same order of magnitude of risk as “using a fridge like literally everyone does”. You are being manipulated by “Merchants of Doubt”, that's what happening here.
littlestymaar 3y ago
> That's something for littering laws to deal with. How are littering laws supposed to prevent plastic bags from flying away from landfills?
- prawn 3y ago
  A fair bit of litter I see (on roadtrips at least) is from overflowing bins at rest areas where the council is using poorly designed bins, people are over-stuffing them, animals are pulling things out looking for scraps, etc. The small amount of local litter appears to come from rubbish trucks tipping bins into the trucks on windy days.

manmal 3y ago

Every country has littering laws, and they don’t work.

dotancohen 3y ago
You mean that they are not effectively enforced.
- rabuse 3y ago
  How would you enforce them?
  - michaelt 3y ago
    We'll simply put a serial number on every single-use plastic bag, and link it to a government-issued photo ID card when you accept the bag. There will be a mobile app allowing you to register the transfer of a registered plastic bag to another citizen, possibly using the blockchain. The police will then arrest the owners of lost bags in their copious free time. /s
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    The “perp” is given a ticket. Comes with a fine that helps pay for further enforcement.
    - manmal 3y ago
      So we need to hire more police just to mitigate littering? Doesn’t sound like a smart solution tbh.
      - mixmastamyk 3y ago
        In the short term yes, but probably not their only duty. Want the problem solved in the real world or not? Hoping doesn't work, as has been demonstrated. Also, in country where societal trust has broken down, it could only be successful as part of a larger strategy to fix that first. Presumably after a culture of cleanliness takes hold, "litter enforcement" would drop off.
        manmal 3y ago
        I think it’s smarter to just ban packaging that will be around 100+ years.

ezzaf 3y ago

They may get reused, but the data shows that: * Sales of bin liners (for example) do not significantly increase when single use plastic bags are banned * Plastic bag litter is significantly reduced. If you want less litter, banning single use plastic bags is a great way to achieve that Sources https://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/curious-canberra/2017-08-28/does-a-plastic-bag-ban-cause-a-spike-in-the-use-of-bin-bags/8819504 https://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/curious-canberra/2017-0... https://www.parliament.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/1257838/Unfantastic-Plastic-Review-of-the-ACT-Plastic-Shopping-Bag-Ban,-dated-August-2018.pdf https://www.parliament.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/000...

Nition 3y ago
Personally I can say I switched to just not lining the bin after the plastic bag ban. I have a separate compost bin for food scraps so the main bin mostly doesn't get too dirty, and if it does get some liquid or whatever on it, a quick rinse with the hose fixes that.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  Yuck that would not work here in Spain.. you'd have cockroaches all over. And I don't have a place to hose things down :(
- prawn 3y ago
  We use a paper bag (from grocery deliveries) as our general household waste bin under the sink. Also under the sink are a compost bin and then a recycling tub. The compost and recycling tubs fill up far faster than the general waste bag.
gnicholas 3y ago
The evidence regarding sales of bin liners is mixed: > The study found California communities with bag policies saw sales of 4-gallon trash bags increase by 55% to 75%, and sales of 8-gallon trash bags increase 87% to 110%. These results echo earlier studies that also showed increases in sales of smaller plastic trash bags. But while sales of small garbage bags jumped after policies were implemented, sales of larger 13-gallon trash bags -- the size often found in kitchen trash cans -- remained relatively unchanged. [1] 1: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/03/220329142327.htm#:~:text=The%20study%20found%20California%20communities,of%20smaller%20plastic%20trash%20bags https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/03/220329142327.h....

tptacek 3y ago

Yes. You can find a bunch of estimates for how many times you have to reuse a canvas bag for the environmental cost of its production to net out. You generally have a choice between plastics, paper, and fabric, and fabric seems to be the worst of all the options, and the one the plastic ban encourages. I think I like the approach I see in Chicagoland, which is just to charge for the plastic bags. (We keep all our plastic bags, but then, we have two dogs).

chasil 3y ago
Tyvek bags get sold commonly in my area, and Tyvek does not survive a standard washing machine cycle. A canvas bag used for groceries should be washed between each use.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  I wonder what the environmental impact of washing a bag 100 times is, compared to 100 single-use plastic bags (which may be reused as trash bags).
- loeg 3y ago
  I can't imagine washing a grocery bag between every use. Why?
  - chasil 3y ago
    Salmonella are endemic to chicken. E. Coli have also been found in reusable bags. Fungus and yeasts are also a problem. You don't want these on your salad greens, fruits, or vegetables. Reusing the bags without washing risks exposure to pathogens. https://polymerinnovationblog.com/reusable-grocery-bags-may-pose-a-health-risk-the-scientific-evidence/ https://polymerinnovationblog.com/reusable-grocery-bags-may-...
    - littlestymaar 3y ago
      Somewhere else in this discussion you posted a study financed by a plastic industry lobby, and now from a plastic chemistry blog, don't you see a pattern?

chasil 3y ago

Another major problem is that bag bans have been found in studies to result in bacteriological infection spikes. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/plastic-bag-ban_n_2641430 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/plastic-bag-ban_n_2641430 For myself, I (re)use these as trash bags, so I hope the ban never reaches my community. My grocery store also has a used bag deposit.

littlestymaar 3y ago
> authors received monetary support from the American Chemistry Council, a trade group representing the interests of plastic bag manufacturers. End of the joke.
- chasil 3y ago
  The joke could be on you. https://www.health.ny.gov/publications/2827/ https://www.health.ny.gov/publications/2827/
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    Do you really clean your fridge weekly according to official recommendations? Would you recommend to stop using fridges since listeria can proliferate in fridges that aren't regularly cleaned and people don't wash their fridge often enough to be safe? Then why do you bring this kind of recommendation as an argument against reusable bags?
    - chasil 3y ago
      I'm not recommending for unusable bags. What I'm saying is that the risk profile is transferred.
      - littlestymaar 3y ago
        > What I'm saying is that the risk profile is transferred And I'm saying it's mostly BS made up by the plastic industry to muddy the water. On the one hand you have a real, significant risk to the environment. On the other hand, you have a “risk” that doesn't really exist unless your immune system is depressed and is the same order of magnitude of risk as “using a fridge like literally everyone does”. You are being manipulated by “Merchants of Doubt”, that's what happening here.

littlestymaar 3y ago

> That's something for littering laws to deal with. How are littering laws supposed to prevent plastic bags from flying away from landfills?

prawn 3y ago
A fair bit of litter I see (on roadtrips at least) is from overflowing bins at rest areas where the council is using poorly designed bins, people are over-stuffing them, animals are pulling things out looking for scraps, etc. The small amount of local litter appears to come from rubbish trucks tipping bins into the trucks on windy days.