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Maybe I move in the wrong circles, but we banned both plastic shopping bags and plastic straws in New Zealand, and I don’t hear anyone complaining about it. Eve

Maybe I move in the wrong circles, but we banned both plastic shopping bags and plastic straws in New Zealand, and I don’t hear anyone complaining about it. Everyone I know uses paper bags (from the online supermarket deliveries) to line their bins. It’s not plastic bags and straws that make it to the landfill that are the problem - it’s the ones that don’t make it to the landfill. I haven’t seen a plastic bag stuck in a tree for years!

avastmick 3y ago
I have to second this. No one I know complained when it was introduced, and I saw no complaints aired in the media of any noticeable degree. We still have too much unnecessary plastic in packaging. My wife is Irish, and they started the removal of plastic bags over 20 years ago. It was carefully phased in over time. It led to a 90% reduction in plastic bag use [0]. They also weigh your trash (in Dublin, anyway) as a means of cost pressure to reduce waste and encourage recycling. It is stated to have reduced waste by 50% [1]. [0] https://www.irishenvironment.com/iepedia/plastic-bag-levy/ https://www.irishenvironment.com/iepedia/plastic-bag-levy/ [1] https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/why-it-pays-to-charge-for-waste-by-weight-1.3153949 https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/why-it-pays-to-c...
- romaniitedomum 3y ago
  > They also weigh your trash (in Dublin, anyway) They weigh country-wide. In Ireland waste collection is done by private companies and they charge by weight. As I recall, they have something like subscription plans [1]. I'm Irish but I live in New Zealand now, and here the rubbish collection is paid for by your Council rates. I was still living in Ireland when the plastic ban was introduced. There was push-back from some companies that make plastic bags, unsurprisingly, but it worked really well. There was a bit of push-back here in NZ too, similar to what happened in Ireland. The usual grumbling, about interfering greenies, loss of freedoms, etc. [1] This is an example of one company's offerings: https://cportal.barnarecycling.com/signup/signup_page2.php?ServiceArea=Co%20Mayo&ServiceLocality=Claremorris https://cportal.barnarecycling.com/signup/signup_page2.php?S...
mfer 3y ago
When they banned single use plastic bags in New Jersey it increased the amount of plastic in use [1]. Starbucks straw less lids use more plastic than the old lid ands straw. With a lot of them ending up in the trash instead of recycling, it may not be a net benefit. The changes being made aren’t having quite the impact people had hoped. [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/01/25/new-jersey-plastic-bag-ban-study/72354533007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/01/25/new-je...
- wavesounds 3y ago
  The main goal isn't to reduce the amount of overall plastic created its to reduce the amount of plastic trash that ends up on the streets, beaches, rivers, etc.
  - gregable 3y ago
    I sometimes am not clear on what the goal is. The article seems to argue that the goal is very narrowly to reduce the amount of plastic bags created/consumed and then claims a study shows that the bans do indeed achieve that goal. It's hard to imagine this goal not being achieved, but it's too narrow. I haven't seen any study showing that total plastic trash, incorrectly disposed, is reduced. It could be hard to study, I admit. I'd love to know the amount of the reduction as well. My guess would be there is a reduction, but it is fairly small. For example, in the San Jose survey: https://web.archive.org/web/20230512013405/https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/environmental-services/recycling-garbage/waste-reduction/bring-your-own-bag-ordinance https://web.archive.org/web/20230512013405/https://www.sanjo... pre-ban creek and litter surveys only showed 9% single-use plastic bags and this dropped to 2%. I'd imagine 7% reduction is the upper bound on the impact, but it could be smaller than that if other litter increased. Maybe that's high enough to make the ban worth the inconvenience, I don't know what the right threshold should be. Broader goals could include reducing total plastic production, reducing fossil fuel mining, etc. I'm more suspicious that these goals are not being meaningfully affected by bag bans.
  - giarc 3y ago
    If that's the case, is targeting rich developed countries with efficient waste management and pickup the best approach? I live in a very clean, North American city. I rarely see plastic bags blowing around. We have residential garbage pick up, and public spaces all have public bins. Our landfills are, what I would assume, are well run. Does the plastic bag ban in my city make sense? We never had an issue with plastic ending up in lakes/rivers etc. Now look to developing nations where rivers and streams are overrun with plastic. Do they have plastic bag bans? Doesn't seem like it and seems like that is where there should be one.
coding123 3y ago
So this whole thing is really about trash not the environment
- PlunderBunny 3y ago
  That’s a good observation, except that the two are often linked of course.
crtified 3y ago
The reduction in such litter is a boon in itself. However we can't allow it to distract from the bigger picture, for example with New Zealand : https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/how-does-new-zealand-packaging-recycling-compare-to-the-rest-of-the-world https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/how-does-new-zealand-pa... "We were the second-worst country for packaging recyclability. Here in clean, green Aotearoa, 57% of the packaging we assessed wasn’t recyclable in practice. That’s not too bad when compared to Brazil (92%), but we have a lot of room for improvement. Especially when our Aussie cousins beat us by a mile with just 14% of packaging not being recyclable." A big part of the problem is the commercial conflict of interest, which among other things means that robust data isn't available. For example, if we had year-on-year graphs showing domestic plastic production, consumption, sales, in different regions and industries, for different purposes, we could start to build a true big picture. Instead, the populace is reduced to arbitrarily celebrating visible wins, without really knowing whether we're winning or not.
- switch007 3y ago
  > However we can't allow it to distract from the bigger pictur I sometimes wonder if that’s the real agenda Like recycling. Keeping us busy sorting things in to different bins. Without thinking about the absolute torrent of crap people order on a daily or weekly basis. But it’s ok because the cardboard and plastic packaging is going in a magical bin (which often isn’t that magical…)
  - morepork 3y ago
    There is too much of a focus on recycling, when reducing the amount of stuff we consume would be far more beneficial. When I was at school they used to talk about the 4 Rs, reduce, renew, reuse, recycle (I'm sure different variations exist). With recycling being essentially a last resort as it's so difficult and inefficient. But now it seems there is barely any mention of the first 3.
    - PlunderBunny 3y ago
      A cynic would say that it’s harder for companies to make money selling products that reduce/renew/reuse.
OJFord 3y ago
Fwiw I haven't seen a plastic bag stuck in a tree for years either. I live in the UK where they're legal but there's a (mandated) 10p or something fee for them. (Personally I have a few of the slightly more expensive but much less disposable ones that I can reuse indefinitely.) Weirdly I did see cassette tape stuck in a tree recently though!
dev_0 3y ago
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avastmick 3y ago

I have to second this. No one I know complained when it was introduced, and I saw no complaints aired in the media of any noticeable degree. We still have too much unnecessary plastic in packaging. My wife is Irish, and they started the removal of plastic bags over 20 years ago. It was carefully phased in over time. It led to a 90% reduction in plastic bag use [0]. They also weigh your trash (in Dublin, anyway) as a means of cost pressure to reduce waste and encourage recycling. It is stated to have reduced waste by 50% [1]. [0] https://www.irishenvironment.com/iepedia/plastic-bag-levy/ https://www.irishenvironment.com/iepedia/plastic-bag-levy/ [1] https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/why-it-pays-to-charge-for-waste-by-weight-1.3153949 https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/why-it-pays-to-c...

romaniitedomum 3y ago
> They also weigh your trash (in Dublin, anyway) They weigh country-wide. In Ireland waste collection is done by private companies and they charge by weight. As I recall, they have something like subscription plans [1]. I'm Irish but I live in New Zealand now, and here the rubbish collection is paid for by your Council rates. I was still living in Ireland when the plastic ban was introduced. There was push-back from some companies that make plastic bags, unsurprisingly, but it worked really well. There was a bit of push-back here in NZ too, similar to what happened in Ireland. The usual grumbling, about interfering greenies, loss of freedoms, etc. [1] This is an example of one company's offerings: https://cportal.barnarecycling.com/signup/signup_page2.php?ServiceArea=Co%20Mayo&ServiceLocality=Claremorris https://cportal.barnarecycling.com/signup/signup_page2.php?S...

mfer 3y ago

When they banned single use plastic bags in New Jersey it increased the amount of plastic in use [1]. Starbucks straw less lids use more plastic than the old lid ands straw. With a lot of them ending up in the trash instead of recycling, it may not be a net benefit. The changes being made aren’t having quite the impact people had hoped. [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/01/25/new-jersey-plastic-bag-ban-study/72354533007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/01/25/new-je...

wavesounds 3y ago
The main goal isn't to reduce the amount of overall plastic created its to reduce the amount of plastic trash that ends up on the streets, beaches, rivers, etc.
- gregable 3y ago
  I sometimes am not clear on what the goal is. The article seems to argue that the goal is very narrowly to reduce the amount of plastic bags created/consumed and then claims a study shows that the bans do indeed achieve that goal. It's hard to imagine this goal not being achieved, but it's too narrow. I haven't seen any study showing that total plastic trash, incorrectly disposed, is reduced. It could be hard to study, I admit. I'd love to know the amount of the reduction as well. My guess would be there is a reduction, but it is fairly small. For example, in the San Jose survey: https://web.archive.org/web/20230512013405/https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/environmental-services/recycling-garbage/waste-reduction/bring-your-own-bag-ordinance https://web.archive.org/web/20230512013405/https://www.sanjo... pre-ban creek and litter surveys only showed 9% single-use plastic bags and this dropped to 2%. I'd imagine 7% reduction is the upper bound on the impact, but it could be smaller than that if other litter increased. Maybe that's high enough to make the ban worth the inconvenience, I don't know what the right threshold should be. Broader goals could include reducing total plastic production, reducing fossil fuel mining, etc. I'm more suspicious that these goals are not being meaningfully affected by bag bans.
- giarc 3y ago
  If that's the case, is targeting rich developed countries with efficient waste management and pickup the best approach? I live in a very clean, North American city. I rarely see plastic bags blowing around. We have residential garbage pick up, and public spaces all have public bins. Our landfills are, what I would assume, are well run. Does the plastic bag ban in my city make sense? We never had an issue with plastic ending up in lakes/rivers etc. Now look to developing nations where rivers and streams are overrun with plastic. Do they have plastic bag bans? Doesn't seem like it and seems like that is where there should be one.

coding123 3y ago

So this whole thing is really about trash not the environment

PlunderBunny 3y ago
That’s a good observation, except that the two are often linked of course.

crtified 3y ago

The reduction in such litter is a boon in itself. However we can't allow it to distract from the bigger picture, for example with New Zealand : https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/how-does-new-zealand-packaging-recycling-compare-to-the-rest-of-the-world https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/how-does-new-zealand-pa... "We were the second-worst country for packaging recyclability. Here in clean, green Aotearoa, 57% of the packaging we assessed wasn’t recyclable in practice. That’s not too bad when compared to Brazil (92%), but we have a lot of room for improvement. Especially when our Aussie cousins beat us by a mile with just 14% of packaging not being recyclable." A big part of the problem is the commercial conflict of interest, which among other things means that robust data isn't available. For example, if we had year-on-year graphs showing domestic plastic production, consumption, sales, in different regions and industries, for different purposes, we could start to build a true big picture. Instead, the populace is reduced to arbitrarily celebrating visible wins, without really knowing whether we're winning or not.

switch007 3y ago
> However we can't allow it to distract from the bigger pictur I sometimes wonder if that’s the real agenda Like recycling. Keeping us busy sorting things in to different bins. Without thinking about the absolute torrent of crap people order on a daily or weekly basis. But it’s ok because the cardboard and plastic packaging is going in a magical bin (which often isn’t that magical…)
- morepork 3y ago
  There is too much of a focus on recycling, when reducing the amount of stuff we consume would be far more beneficial. When I was at school they used to talk about the 4 Rs, reduce, renew, reuse, recycle (I'm sure different variations exist). With recycling being essentially a last resort as it's so difficult and inefficient. But now it seems there is barely any mention of the first 3.
  - PlunderBunny 3y ago
    A cynic would say that it’s harder for companies to make money selling products that reduce/renew/reuse.

OJFord 3y ago

Fwiw I haven't seen a plastic bag stuck in a tree for years either. I live in the UK where they're legal but there's a (mandated) 10p or something fee for them. (Personally I have a few of the slightly more expensive but much less disposable ones that I can reuse indefinitely.) Weirdly I did see cassette tape stuck in a tree recently though!

dev_0 3y ago

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