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> Even more despised than the Brunch People are the vegetarians. Serious cooks regard these members of the dining public—and their Hezbollah-like splinter facti

> Even more despised than the Brunch People are the vegetarians. Serious cooks regard these members of the dining public—and their Hezbollah-like splinter faction, the vegans—as enemies of everything that’s good and decent in the human spirit. To live life without veal or chicken stock, fish cheeks, sausages, cheese, or organ meats is treasonous. Yikes. A comment that was a product of its times, I suppose. It is worth noting that Anthony Bourdain appeared to have changed his mind about vegetarian food after visiting Punjab, India[1], like so many other Western chefs whose only experience of vegetarian food so far was soggy vegetables, coleslaw, cold French fries, and sub-par pasta. It helps to have a history of vegetarianism going back nearly four millennia, I suppose. [1]: https://youtu.be/_RFTnb4nC-A?t=28 https://youtu.be/_RFTnb4nC-A?t=28

Spivak 3y ago
I mean I think his point still stands, if you want a meal in what could be loosely called western culinarily tradition made vegetarian or vegan you're asking to be disappointed. There's an interesting lack of "respect" for lack of a better word when it comes to western dishes, you wouldn't go to an Indian restaurant and ask for a dish to be made with beef or without spices but people ask western chefs to make dishes without using the core elements that basically define western cuisine, meat and dairy is everything.
- dgfitz 3y ago
  This is touching on the crux of it: entitlement. Unfortunately, entitlement is quite on brand for us westerners these days.
- delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
  > the core elements that basically define western cuisine, meat and dairy is everything It might be more accurate to say 'meat and dairy is everything in northern French cuisine', which Bourdain was a product of. Many Mediterranean cuisines are considerably more vegetarian-friendly: consider simple and fairly traditional Italian dishes like cacio e pepe, carciofi alla giudia, sugo all'arrabbiata, spaghetti aglio e olio, parmigiana melanzane, and pizza margherita/napoletana. That said, I get your point, and I wouldn't go to a steakhouse demanding good vegetarian food.
  - antiframe 3y ago
    A core element of cacio e pepe /is/ dairy, though. While I agree that Mediterranean cuisines are more vegetarian friendly they do feature a lot of fish and dairy, so I don't know if it's a good counter example.
  - ReptileMan 3y ago
    >consider simple and fairly traditional Italian dishes like cacio e pepe, carciofi alla giudia, sugo all'arrabbiata, spaghetti aglio e olio, parmigiana melanzane, and pizza margherita/napoletana. Steak fiorentina
- morsch 3y ago
  You can't think of a single vegetarian dish in western cuisine that's non-disappointing? Wow.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- jltsiren 3y ago
  This could be a terminological issue. There used to be a lot of confusion around various kinds of vegetarianism a couple of decades ago. Then things basically settled, and "vegetarian" without further qualifiers became understood as "no meat" (and no fish and seafood). Dairy and eggs are allowed, unless specifically ruled out. Traditional western cuisine was largely vegetarian in this sense. Meat used to be an expensive luxury, and most people didn't eat it every day.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
chefandy 3y ago
Yeah he deliberately hammed it up for his book with this stuff, and he probably couldn't have made a name for himself if he didn't. I remember the talk show interviews in which he gave the "never order fish on a Monday" thing, as if the fish at most people's grocery stores was even remotely as fresh as the fish at a Manhattan restaurant on Monday. Me and many other restaurant workers I knew were annoyed by his sensationalizing this. But I've never met any of them that didn't happily forgive him for deftly portraying the insane grit, discrimination, drug use, shadiness, and abuse in the restaurant industry while also portraying the beauty, passion, creativity and humanity of it. He definitely ended up being one of the most positive elements in that world.
- delichon 3y ago
  Unfortunately his tendency to dramatize and catastrophize either came with his depression, contributed to it, or both. He suffered for his art to our benefit. I wonder, if he was chill enough to survive, would we know his name?
  - chefandy 3y ago
    He also knew how to deliberately be a jackass for effect, which is a survival skill in commercial kitchens when paired with a thick skin. Fundamental emotional issues aside, I do know that his outward-facing persona was prone to being rather flamboyant well before he was a celebrity-- which he implied in his books. One of my teachers in culinary school was a cook in P-town while Bourdain was a teenager working his first kitchen jobs, and even then, pretty much everybody in the local industry knew who he was. Generally well liked but known as a serious party animal. P-town does have a heck of a party culture and I imagine I'd have taken a very different, and much more substance-focused path had I worked summers there as a teen line cook.
    - jjtheblunt 3y ago
      What's P-town?
      - 3y ago
noworriesnate 3y ago
I have an an-law who is vegan, who has compared me eating meat to pedophilia and suggested that the only moral choices I had was to either commit suicide or become vegan. A constant barrage of utter bullshit, going on for years. All with plenty of assurances that she is doing it out of love, and it would be unloving not to say anything. It's not like this is a one-off case either. The meme about vegans being this way exists for a reason. Look up That Vegan Teacher[1] for more examples of this behavior. So it's possible the author had real life exposure vegans. I'll grant that maybe 50% of vegans aren't raving lunatics. But the ones who aren't raving lunatics need to distance themselves from the raving ones. Maybe call themselves "non-abusive vegans" or something like that. If their didn't all occupy the same label that would be helpful. Of course, the abusers would probably adopt the new lingo too since they're supposedly doing it for your own good. :( [1] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-q4j_ttUgWmir4-Cwh_Hrg https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-q4j_ttUgWmir4-Cwh_Hrg
- matthewmacleod 3y ago
  I’ll preface this by saying I’m neither a vegetarian nor a vegan. The meme about vegans being this way exists for a reason. Mostly this is due to people who eat meat being unwilling to be faced with the actual impact of their choices, and in turn hamming up the existence of this attitude. I'll grant that maybe 50% of vegans aren't raving lunatics. But the ones who aren't raving lunatics need to distance themselves from the raving ones. No they don’t; you need to learn not to apply broad brush strokes to a large community. It’s a you problem. I’m sorry you have an asshole relative. But the overwhelming majority of vegans don’t give a shit about you or your choices - certainly on a personal level.
  - AlexandrB 3y ago
    > Mostly this is due to people who eat meat being unwilling to be faced with the actual impact of their choices, and in turn hamming up the existence of this attitude. The double standard between "pets" and "livestock" is especially illuminating in this regard. I know many people that will say eating a dog is unconscionable... right before ordering another helping of bacon.
sharadov 3y ago
TBH - no one knows how to make vegetables interesting like Indian cuisine. There is a diverse pantheon of Indian cuisine outside of North Indian food - paneer, chicken tikka, and other cream-laden dishes that have come to represent Indian cuisine. You need to visit the Indian-heavy areas of New Jersey, Dallas, Houston, San Jose to get a proper indoctrination into real Indian food.
- delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
  > You need to visit the Indian-heavy areas of New Jersey, Dallas, Houston, San Jose to get a proper indoctrination into real Indian food Or... one could just visit India :)
- arwineap 3y ago
  Can we just agree that indian food is tasty and every region contributes? Yes, it's diverse, yes there are some dishes that are overshadowed; but that doesn't make it less interesting, or worse less indian.
Throw73747 3y ago
> Hezbollah-like Still true today. I am vegan who eats meat on Saturdays. Don't get me started about hate, and policing I get from other vegans! Every one has to step in to protect sanctity of this "cult"!
- colanderman 3y ago
  Honest question, why use the term then? (Personally -- I don't judge anyone's dietary choices -- but I rely on accurate use of the term to identify safe spaces.)
  - Throw73747 3y ago
    Because I am a vegan. Maybe bad one, but still a vegan! There are Muslims who drink alcohol, Christians who visited church years ago... I don't always have a choice about what I eat.
    - colanderman 3y ago
      > I don't always have a choice about what I eat. Thanks for your answer, yes, this is the case for many people I know.
    - astura 3y ago
      Flexitarian is a more accurate description of your diet.
      - eduction 3y ago
        What’s your minimum timeframe? If someone is vegan for a year then eats meat the next, do we retroactively revoke their year 1 veganism? If I am vegan for January and then in February eat meat, am I retroactively not a vegan for January? It sounds like this person is a vegan at least six days a week. I don’t see how Saturday erases Friday any more than 2023 would erase 2022. And I don’t begrudge them becoming vegan again on Sunday. Who would that benefit? Being vegan 6 days a week is way more vegan than most people.
tomcam 3y ago
> Yikes. A comment that was a product of its times, I suppose Or maybe it was meant to be funny
- delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
  Help me—I struggle to see the humour in it. Bourdain (unintentionally or not) painted the dietary choices and the culture of some 700+ million people (about a tenth of the human population then) as 'as enemies of everything that’s good and decent'. It was a rubbish and narrow-minded comment then, it still is one now. I'm willing to bet that for all his pomp and puffery, Bourdain never actually ate Indian food until he went there, did so, and changed his mind. Credit where it is due, but then again, Indian food generally changes everyone's minds about vegetarianism, so not so much. You wouldn't say that about left-handed people, would you?
  - 4gotunameagain 3y ago
    Tell me you're indian without telling me you're indian ? Yea that part might be a bit exaggerated, but in general Bourdain has stated in the past his support (or tolerance?) of vegetarianism when it comes to religion and not when it is first world luxury virtue signalling.
  - tomcam 3y ago
    Dude I make fun of everyone. Left-handed people, fat people, white people, nerds, drummers, vegetarians, vegans, meat eaters, comics, inmates, journalists, rich people, laborers, poor people (I’ve been all of these things). Chinese and black moms, Polish people, my half-breed kids, cops—-as with Bourdain in that quote, I often make affectionate fun of people through exaggeration. They almost always get the joke. I don’t give a flying Wallenda about those who don’t. Life’s too short. People love laughing at themselves and their cultures. And they love laughing at others even more.
  - electroly 3y ago
    > You wouldn't say that about left-handed people, would you? One of the most commonly made-fun-of groups in America. You couldn't have picked a worse example. Yes, we would absolutely say that about left-handed people. "Left" and "sinister" are related words in Latin, and right-handed people won't ever let southpaws forget it.
ReptileMan 3y ago
The culinary restrictions are getting out of hand. We are living in a generation of extreme picky eaters. Unfortunately, almost always women. On a pizza party I hosted lately - one didn't eat meat, the other mushrooms, third hated peppers, fourth onions, fifth - even mildly spiced stuff. The guys attitude was - if it can't jump out of the plate and eat me - I will eat it. Surprisingly those things suddenly start to diminish the moment they start to approach 30. I have always harbored the suspicion that since you can't get anyone shocked with getting drunk and doing stupid stuff nowadays it is mostly done for attention seeking.
- gardenhedge 3y ago
  So a margherita pizza is a classic and would have solved your problem
  - ReptileMan 3y ago
    Yes. That way everyone will be unhappy. Wise. The people were in their 20s. Way too unsophisticated tastebuds to appreciate the brilliance of the margherita.

Spivak 3y ago

I mean I think his point still stands, if you want a meal in what could be loosely called western culinarily tradition made vegetarian or vegan you're asking to be disappointed. There's an interesting lack of "respect" for lack of a better word when it comes to western dishes, you wouldn't go to an Indian restaurant and ask for a dish to be made with beef or without spices but people ask western chefs to make dishes without using the core elements that basically define western cuisine, meat and dairy is everything.

dgfitz 3y ago
This is touching on the crux of it: entitlement. Unfortunately, entitlement is quite on brand for us westerners these days.
delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
> the core elements that basically define western cuisine, meat and dairy is everything It might be more accurate to say 'meat and dairy is everything in northern French cuisine', which Bourdain was a product of. Many Mediterranean cuisines are considerably more vegetarian-friendly: consider simple and fairly traditional Italian dishes like cacio e pepe, carciofi alla giudia, sugo all'arrabbiata, spaghetti aglio e olio, parmigiana melanzane, and pizza margherita/napoletana. That said, I get your point, and I wouldn't go to a steakhouse demanding good vegetarian food.
- antiframe 3y ago
  A core element of cacio e pepe /is/ dairy, though. While I agree that Mediterranean cuisines are more vegetarian friendly they do feature a lot of fish and dairy, so I don't know if it's a good counter example.
- ReptileMan 3y ago
  >consider simple and fairly traditional Italian dishes like cacio e pepe, carciofi alla giudia, sugo all'arrabbiata, spaghetti aglio e olio, parmigiana melanzane, and pizza margherita/napoletana. Steak fiorentina
morsch 3y ago
You can't think of a single vegetarian dish in western cuisine that's non-disappointing? Wow.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
jltsiren 3y ago
This could be a terminological issue. There used to be a lot of confusion around various kinds of vegetarianism a couple of decades ago. Then things basically settled, and "vegetarian" without further qualifiers became understood as "no meat" (and no fish and seafood). Dairy and eggs are allowed, unless specifically ruled out. Traditional western cuisine was largely vegetarian in this sense. Meat used to be an expensive luxury, and most people didn't eat it every day.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

chefandy 3y ago

Yeah he deliberately hammed it up for his book with this stuff, and he probably couldn't have made a name for himself if he didn't. I remember the talk show interviews in which he gave the "never order fish on a Monday" thing, as if the fish at most people's grocery stores was even remotely as fresh as the fish at a Manhattan restaurant on Monday. Me and many other restaurant workers I knew were annoyed by his sensationalizing this. But I've never met any of them that didn't happily forgive him for deftly portraying the insane grit, discrimination, drug use, shadiness, and abuse in the restaurant industry while also portraying the beauty, passion, creativity and humanity of it. He definitely ended up being one of the most positive elements in that world.

delichon 3y ago
Unfortunately his tendency to dramatize and catastrophize either came with his depression, contributed to it, or both. He suffered for his art to our benefit. I wonder, if he was chill enough to survive, would we know his name?
- chefandy 3y ago
  He also knew how to deliberately be a jackass for effect, which is a survival skill in commercial kitchens when paired with a thick skin. Fundamental emotional issues aside, I do know that his outward-facing persona was prone to being rather flamboyant well before he was a celebrity-- which he implied in his books. One of my teachers in culinary school was a cook in P-town while Bourdain was a teenager working his first kitchen jobs, and even then, pretty much everybody in the local industry knew who he was. Generally well liked but known as a serious party animal. P-town does have a heck of a party culture and I imagine I'd have taken a very different, and much more substance-focused path had I worked summers there as a teen line cook.
  - jjtheblunt 3y ago
    What's P-town?
    - 3y ago

noworriesnate 3y ago

I have an an-law who is vegan, who has compared me eating meat to pedophilia and suggested that the only moral choices I had was to either commit suicide or become vegan. A constant barrage of utter bullshit, going on for years. All with plenty of assurances that she is doing it out of love, and it would be unloving not to say anything. It's not like this is a one-off case either. The meme about vegans being this way exists for a reason. Look up That Vegan Teacher[1] for more examples of this behavior. So it's possible the author had real life exposure vegans. I'll grant that maybe 50% of vegans aren't raving lunatics. But the ones who aren't raving lunatics need to distance themselves from the raving ones. Maybe call themselves "non-abusive vegans" or something like that. If their didn't all occupy the same label that would be helpful. Of course, the abusers would probably adopt the new lingo too since they're supposedly doing it for your own good. :( [1] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-q4j_ttUgWmir4-Cwh_Hrg https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-q4j_ttUgWmir4-Cwh_Hrg

matthewmacleod 3y ago
I’ll preface this by saying I’m neither a vegetarian nor a vegan. The meme about vegans being this way exists for a reason. Mostly this is due to people who eat meat being unwilling to be faced with the actual impact of their choices, and in turn hamming up the existence of this attitude. I'll grant that maybe 50% of vegans aren't raving lunatics. But the ones who aren't raving lunatics need to distance themselves from the raving ones. No they don’t; you need to learn not to apply broad brush strokes to a large community. It’s a you problem. I’m sorry you have an asshole relative. But the overwhelming majority of vegans don’t give a shit about you or your choices - certainly on a personal level.
- AlexandrB 3y ago
  > Mostly this is due to people who eat meat being unwilling to be faced with the actual impact of their choices, and in turn hamming up the existence of this attitude. The double standard between "pets" and "livestock" is especially illuminating in this regard. I know many people that will say eating a dog is unconscionable... right before ordering another helping of bacon.

sharadov 3y ago

TBH - no one knows how to make vegetables interesting like Indian cuisine. There is a diverse pantheon of Indian cuisine outside of North Indian food - paneer, chicken tikka, and other cream-laden dishes that have come to represent Indian cuisine. You need to visit the Indian-heavy areas of New Jersey, Dallas, Houston, San Jose to get a proper indoctrination into real Indian food.

delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
> You need to visit the Indian-heavy areas of New Jersey, Dallas, Houston, San Jose to get a proper indoctrination into real Indian food Or... one could just visit India :)
arwineap 3y ago
Can we just agree that indian food is tasty and every region contributes? Yes, it's diverse, yes there are some dishes that are overshadowed; but that doesn't make it less interesting, or worse less indian.

Throw73747 3y ago

> Hezbollah-like Still true today. I am vegan who eats meat on Saturdays. Don't get me started about hate, and policing I get from other vegans! Every one has to step in to protect sanctity of this "cult"!

colanderman 3y ago
Honest question, why use the term then? (Personally -- I don't judge anyone's dietary choices -- but I rely on accurate use of the term to identify safe spaces.)
- Throw73747 3y ago
  Because I am a vegan. Maybe bad one, but still a vegan! There are Muslims who drink alcohol, Christians who visited church years ago... I don't always have a choice about what I eat.
  - colanderman 3y ago
    > I don't always have a choice about what I eat. Thanks for your answer, yes, this is the case for many people I know.
  - astura 3y ago
    Flexitarian is a more accurate description of your diet.
    - eduction 3y ago
      What’s your minimum timeframe? If someone is vegan for a year then eats meat the next, do we retroactively revoke their year 1 veganism? If I am vegan for January and then in February eat meat, am I retroactively not a vegan for January? It sounds like this person is a vegan at least six days a week. I don’t see how Saturday erases Friday any more than 2023 would erase 2022. And I don’t begrudge them becoming vegan again on Sunday. Who would that benefit? Being vegan 6 days a week is way more vegan than most people.

tomcam 3y ago

> Yikes. A comment that was a product of its times, I suppose Or maybe it was meant to be funny

delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
Help me—I struggle to see the humour in it. Bourdain (unintentionally or not) painted the dietary choices and the culture of some 700+ million people (about a tenth of the human population then) as 'as enemies of everything that’s good and decent'. It was a rubbish and narrow-minded comment then, it still is one now. I'm willing to bet that for all his pomp and puffery, Bourdain never actually ate Indian food until he went there, did so, and changed his mind. Credit where it is due, but then again, Indian food generally changes everyone's minds about vegetarianism, so not so much. You wouldn't say that about left-handed people, would you?
- 4gotunameagain 3y ago
  Tell me you're indian without telling me you're indian ? Yea that part might be a bit exaggerated, but in general Bourdain has stated in the past his support (or tolerance?) of vegetarianism when it comes to religion and not when it is first world luxury virtue signalling.
- tomcam 3y ago
  Dude I make fun of everyone. Left-handed people, fat people, white people, nerds, drummers, vegetarians, vegans, meat eaters, comics, inmates, journalists, rich people, laborers, poor people (I’ve been all of these things). Chinese and black moms, Polish people, my half-breed kids, cops—-as with Bourdain in that quote, I often make affectionate fun of people through exaggeration. They almost always get the joke. I don’t give a flying Wallenda about those who don’t. Life’s too short. People love laughing at themselves and their cultures. And they love laughing at others even more.
- electroly 3y ago
  > You wouldn't say that about left-handed people, would you? One of the most commonly made-fun-of groups in America. You couldn't have picked a worse example. Yes, we would absolutely say that about left-handed people. "Left" and "sinister" are related words in Latin, and right-handed people won't ever let southpaws forget it.

ReptileMan 3y ago

The culinary restrictions are getting out of hand. We are living in a generation of extreme picky eaters. Unfortunately, almost always women. On a pizza party I hosted lately - one didn't eat meat, the other mushrooms, third hated peppers, fourth onions, fifth - even mildly spiced stuff. The guys attitude was - if it can't jump out of the plate and eat me - I will eat it. Surprisingly those things suddenly start to diminish the moment they start to approach 30. I have always harbored the suspicion that since you can't get anyone shocked with getting drunk and doing stupid stuff nowadays it is mostly done for attention seeking.

gardenhedge 3y ago
So a margherita pizza is a classic and would have solved your problem
- ReptileMan 3y ago
  Yes. That way everyone will be unhappy. Wise. The people were in their 20s. Way too unsophisticated tastebuds to appreciate the brilliance of the margherita.