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Ultimately, as a society, we have to decide what is more important: the best of us or the worst of us.

loktarogar 3y ago
Framing it like that makes it much more simplistic than reality. While there are some people you can clearly place into "best" or "worst", most people fit somewhere along a spectrum where their placement changes day to day. You ever had a bad day where you forgot to do something you would have done any other day? Do you want software that allows you to do anything on a good day but is potentially catastrophic on a bad day? The answer may still be yes, but regardless it's a more complicated a question than best vs worst.
- sunshowers 3y ago
  That's fair, I was being more flippant than necessary. :)
userbinator 3y ago
"Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither."
- CharlesW 3y ago
  The real quote is more nuanced: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety". It's a balance, obviously. I'm happy to have guardrails if they improve non-technical users' safety.
  - wiseowise 3y ago
    > I'm happy to have guardrails if they improve non-technical users' safety. Not at the expense of expert freedom.
    - CharlesW 3y ago
      Safety is paramount for experts. Those who disregard the importance of safety are likely not experts in their field. If the "console" analogy doesn't resonate, think of Apple as NASCAR. NASCAR has created a private ecosystem. Participating in NASCAR as a team or a driver is a choice, contingent upon meeting their requirements and paying entry fees. NASCAR implements numerous safety measures — SAFER barriers, catch fencing, HANS devices, etc. — to protect everyone involved, whether spectators (users) or drivers and teams (developers and vendors). NASCAR prioritizes the ecosystem first, then spectators, then teams and drivers — in that order. It doesn’t compromise the ecosystem or spectator safety to accommodate individual teams or drivers. Driver safety is crucial, not just because NASCAR values them, but because incidents involving drivers can negatively impact the ecosystem and spectators. Those wishing for NASCAR to resemble the Baja 1000 are tilting at windmills. Similarly, people who want iOS to be like Android aren't just wasting their time, but also disregarding the preferences of users who prioritize platform safety.
      - paulryanrogers 3y ago
        Most users have no idea the tradeoffs between the two. Or the dominance both have in their respective realms. Or the possibilities of having more viable platform choices.
      - wiseowise 3y ago
        Sounds really cool, but I don’t buy it. > Those wishing for NASCAR to resemble the Baja 1000 are tilting at windmills. Similarly, people who want iOS to be like Android aren't just wasting their time, but also disregarding the preferences of users who prioritize platform safety. How providing ability to sideload and having ability to use custom browser engine compromise the system? How having ability to use terminal disregard platform safety? All of those are artificial limitations and you know it.
      - account42 3y ago
        People don't join the Apple cult for the safety. They join it because it's a status symbol and they don't want to be bullied.
account42 3y ago
Exactly. We can either put bars on our windows to preven criminals from breaking in or we can go after the criminals directly so that we don't have to worsen our living conditions. Both kinds of societies exist - low trust and high trust ones. I prefer living in the latter.

Framing it like that makes it much more simplistic than reality. While there are some people you can clearly place into "best" or "worst", most people fit somewhere along a spectrum where their placement changes day to day. You ever had a bad day where you forgot to do something you would have done any other day? Do you want software that allows you to do anything on a good day but is potentially catastrophic on a bad day? The answer may still be yes, but regardless it's a more complicated a question than best vs worst.

sunshowers 3y ago
That's fair, I was being more flippant than necessary. :)

userbinator 3y ago

"Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither."

CharlesW 3y ago
The real quote is more nuanced: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety". It's a balance, obviously. I'm happy to have guardrails if they improve non-technical users' safety.
- wiseowise 3y ago
  > I'm happy to have guardrails if they improve non-technical users' safety. Not at the expense of expert freedom.
  - CharlesW 3y ago
    Safety is paramount for experts. Those who disregard the importance of safety are likely not experts in their field. If the "console" analogy doesn't resonate, think of Apple as NASCAR. NASCAR has created a private ecosystem. Participating in NASCAR as a team or a driver is a choice, contingent upon meeting their requirements and paying entry fees. NASCAR implements numerous safety measures — SAFER barriers, catch fencing, HANS devices, etc. — to protect everyone involved, whether spectators (users) or drivers and teams (developers and vendors). NASCAR prioritizes the ecosystem first, then spectators, then teams and drivers — in that order. It doesn’t compromise the ecosystem or spectator safety to accommodate individual teams or drivers. Driver safety is crucial, not just because NASCAR values them, but because incidents involving drivers can negatively impact the ecosystem and spectators. Those wishing for NASCAR to resemble the Baja 1000 are tilting at windmills. Similarly, people who want iOS to be like Android aren't just wasting their time, but also disregarding the preferences of users who prioritize platform safety.
    - paulryanrogers 3y ago
      Most users have no idea the tradeoffs between the two. Or the dominance both have in their respective realms. Or the possibilities of having more viable platform choices.
    - wiseowise 3y ago
      Sounds really cool, but I don’t buy it. > Those wishing for NASCAR to resemble the Baja 1000 are tilting at windmills. Similarly, people who want iOS to be like Android aren't just wasting their time, but also disregarding the preferences of users who prioritize platform safety. How providing ability to sideload and having ability to use custom browser engine compromise the system? How having ability to use terminal disregard platform safety? All of those are artificial limitations and you know it.
    - account42 3y ago
      People don't join the Apple cult for the safety. They join it because it's a status symbol and they don't want to be bullied.

account42 3y ago

Exactly. We can either put bars on our windows to preven criminals from breaking in or we can go after the criminals directly so that we don't have to worsen our living conditions. Both kinds of societies exist - low trust and high trust ones. I prefer living in the latter.