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Another dimension to this is the arrogant entitlement with which we as developers have treated the Internet, and the whole world in general, as our personal pet

Another dimension to this is the arrogant entitlement with which we as developers have treated the Internet, and the whole world in general, as our personal petri dish to conduct all and any "experiment" without regard to social ethics. The whole edifice of "social media", with it's collateral damage of depressed and suicidal kids, is just a great experiment for the likes of Mark Zuckerberg. Nobody in nervous "academia" can get away with even the most gentle experiments now the ethical guardrails are in place (and mostly for good). But set up a "SV start-up" and you can do what you like with the data of billions, influence, propaganda, whatever...

chefandy 3y ago
"It's not unethical! They agreed to it! We completely disclosed it! It's not our fault that they didn't read paragraph 17 of the privacy policy under the little expandable bullet point that gives you the address to send a SASE to get an unlabeled QR code in the mail within in 6-8 weeks which will give access to the full details in plain English using our proprietary messaging service that requires a Facebook account, DOB, and Social Security Number to log into (covered under a separate privacy policy) using the last released version of Mosaic and a locally installed Java applet. If they don't want to do that, they can even subscribe to our PrivacyInfo Deluxe subscription at $8.95/mo (billed bi-annually) for an immediate PDF download."
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  Wow can I steal that? It's like DOuglas Adams' "..in a locked filing cabinet, outside a disused lavatory with a sign outside the door saying Beware Of The Leopard"
  - chefandy 3y ago
    Haha certainly. I officially deem that text to be in the public domain.
wolverine876 3y ago
Those things interact in multiple ways, the arrogance and ignorance. Obviously, they always do: Arrogance requires ignorance in equal proportion: If you actually understand the complexity and uncertainty of reality, and then of your perception and thought about it, you can't be arrogant. The more arrogance, the more ignorance is needed. The cure for arrogance (and I know from personal experience!) is knowledge. The ignorance of the humanities and social sciences leads to the absurdity of their megalomania, arrogance, and policies. I used to think they knew better, and could only guess why they did what they did. Then I realized I was overlooking the more simple, obvious solution that was staring me in the face, that is staring all of us in the face: They are just ignorant; they really don't know these things. It's not true of all STEM, etc. but I had STEM-studying friends who brag that they never read a book. Many SV leaders and participants are from that crowd, apparently enough for it to be a powerful culture. They deride education, humanities, and social sciences, a parody of the ignorant that's been used in much of the literature (that they haven't read). And more sad, is that people I know that do know better, people with even PhDs in humanities and social sciences, have followed the lead of the ignorant, rather than vice-versa. Rather than educating the world, they buy into the ignorance and worship of it. The humanities and social sciences provide centuries of answers to the problems of today - not every answer, but we can certainly avoid this stupidity. We have everything we need, we just need to wake up to it.
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  That gives me a bit more hope wolverine, ignorance is something that can be fought with education and patient, sincere messaging.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    :) I think many people could just start with Julius Caesar and Richard III, in regard to the mis/disinformation, and its technique and effect. > ignorance is something that can be fought with education and patient, sincere messaging. Indeed. Hopelessness is our only obstacle, the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. I sincerely believe that.

chefandy 3y ago

"It's not unethical! They agreed to it! We completely disclosed it! It's not our fault that they didn't read paragraph 17 of the privacy policy under the little expandable bullet point that gives you the address to send a SASE to get an unlabeled QR code in the mail within in 6-8 weeks which will give access to the full details in plain English using our proprietary messaging service that requires a Facebook account, DOB, and Social Security Number to log into (covered under a separate privacy policy) using the last released version of Mosaic and a locally installed Java applet. If they don't want to do that, they can even subscribe to our PrivacyInfo Deluxe subscription at $8.95/mo (billed bi-annually) for an immediate PDF download."

nonrandomstring 3y ago
Wow can I steal that? It's like DOuglas Adams' "..in a locked filing cabinet, outside a disused lavatory with a sign outside the door saying Beware Of The Leopard"
- chefandy 3y ago
  Haha certainly. I officially deem that text to be in the public domain.

wolverine876 3y ago

Those things interact in multiple ways, the arrogance and ignorance. Obviously, they always do: Arrogance requires ignorance in equal proportion: If you actually understand the complexity and uncertainty of reality, and then of your perception and thought about it, you can't be arrogant. The more arrogance, the more ignorance is needed. The cure for arrogance (and I know from personal experience!) is knowledge. The ignorance of the humanities and social sciences leads to the absurdity of their megalomania, arrogance, and policies. I used to think they knew better, and could only guess why they did what they did. Then I realized I was overlooking the more simple, obvious solution that was staring me in the face, that is staring all of us in the face: They are just ignorant; they really don't know these things. It's not true of all STEM, etc. but I had STEM-studying friends who brag that they never read a book. Many SV leaders and participants are from that crowd, apparently enough for it to be a powerful culture. They deride education, humanities, and social sciences, a parody of the ignorant that's been used in much of the literature (that they haven't read). And more sad, is that people I know that do know better, people with even PhDs in humanities and social sciences, have followed the lead of the ignorant, rather than vice-versa. Rather than educating the world, they buy into the ignorance and worship of it. The humanities and social sciences provide centuries of answers to the problems of today - not every answer, but we can certainly avoid this stupidity. We have everything we need, we just need to wake up to it.

nonrandomstring 3y ago
That gives me a bit more hope wolverine, ignorance is something that can be fought with education and patient, sincere messaging.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  :) I think many people could just start with Julius Caesar and Richard III, in regard to the mis/disinformation, and its technique and effect. > ignorance is something that can be fought with education and patient, sincere messaging. Indeed. Hopelessness is our only obstacle, the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. I sincerely believe that.