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Software Development, a Cocky Discipline: Baseless Assumptions That Understanding Logic Imbues Understanding, Expertise and Knowledge of All Other Fields. Not

Software Development, a Cocky Discipline: Baseless Assumptions That Understanding Logic Imbues Understanding, Expertise and Knowledge of All Other Fields. Not that it's specific to the software world, but definitely pervasive in it. Even as someone who spent half of their adult life as a developer, I'm frequently astonished by the false confidence many developers have about their understanding of unrelated disciplines. I can't tell you how many developers have tried to explain both design and cooking to me even when they know I'm an experienced and educated designer, and a classically trained former chef. It's not even like they're just trying to confidently wield the knowledge they have-- it's DK all the way.

umvi 3y ago
Debugging skills learned from software development are highly applicable for troubleshooting mechanical (car) and even medical problems so it's hard to take professionals in other fields seriously when they lack the same debugging ability. I've taken my car into the mechanic before only to be told the problem isn't reproducible so then I eliminate variables to figure it out myself and essentially do their job for them. Once I enumerate exactly how to reproduce, it's all but clear what the problem is and then they can replace the part.
- chefandy 3y ago
  > Debugging skills learned from software development are highly applicable for troubleshooting mechanical (car) and even medical problems so it's hard to take professionals other fields seriously when they lack the same debugging ability. I'm positive it wasn't intentional, but you've done a fine job buttressing my argument.
  - umvi 3y ago
    True or false: An above average software developer that is good at debugging probably really is better at troubleshooting mechanical or medical problems than an average or below average mechanic or doctor? So then the problem may be that average software developers overestimate their own ability ;)
    - chefandy 3y ago
      > True or false: An above average software developer that is good at debugging probably really is better at troubleshooting mechanical or medical problems than an average or below average mechanic or doctor? > So then the problem may be that average software developers overestimate their own ability ;) Some really good evidence that the answer is "false" is that developers who think it's true will use a handful of personal experiences to levy sweeping judgements about millions of people in a vast array of disciplines, many of which tackle some of the hardest problems humanity has ever undertaken in fields that dwarf the complexity of computer science immeasurably.
    - cornstalks 3y ago
      False. Definitely false. And I say this as an above average software developer (which sounds stupidly cocky to even say).
    - hunter-gatherer 3y ago
      Are you being serious right now? Have you tallied the number of times you've outsmarted someone of another profession. Maybe you know more than you think you do about auto repair???
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        There's a strong bias toward confirmation. First, they fully expect it and are looking for it. Most of all, the actual professional - like any professional - has learned that it's unproductive to debate or educate the patient/customer; you just let them think they're smart and work around it. It's not your job to teach them the error of their ways, but to get your work done. In IT, I've had plenty of clients tell me the most ludicrous nonsense. You just work around it; IT is your job, not theirs; don't humiliate them. Be respectful to people; they have hard days too.
      - umvi 3y ago
        That's true, I haven't counted all the times the mechanic or doctor did their job well. I just tend to remember the times where they didn't do their job well. For example, my daughter had a rash, the doctor says to just put moisturizer on it. Doesn't seem to help so I research it for a few hours on google and conclude it's shingles. The doctor scoffs at my suggestion saying my daughter is way too young to have shingles and says to just continue with the moisturizer. We take her to a second doctor who confirms it's shingles. So yes, I would admit my anecdotes are probably a form of survivorship bias and I'm letting a few incompetent doctors and mechanics taint the ability of their peers.
- actuallyalys 3y ago
  Debugging skills transfer somewhat to solving problems in other domains. However, the reverse is also true and also you often need substantial expertise to actually apply your debugging skills. Honestly I could imagine a mechanic writing the opposite sentiment, saying they don’t respect software developers because they called a support line and the only advice was to restart the computer and then to reinstall it from scratch.
  - chefandy 3y ago
    > Honestly I could imagine a mechanic writing the opposite sentiment Coming from working class social/work/familial environments, I know this archetype well: John Ratzenberger's "Cliff Clavin" from Cheers. It's a dated reference, but it fits really well. The stereotype involves carrying large rings of keys on their belts, showing that they're entrusted with many valuable things, and frequently interjecting others conversations with things like "let me show you out to use that thing [blue smoke]" and "no no no you got it all wrong. What you gotta do is..." In fact, I knew a particularly untalented auto mechanic who insisted that his capability was equivalent to a mechanical engineer when sadly, it wasn't even equivalent to most mechanics. None of us perfectly gauges our capabilities relative others, but some are so very much worse at it.
nonrandomstring 3y ago
Another dimension to this is the arrogant entitlement with which we as developers have treated the Internet, and the whole world in general, as our personal petri dish to conduct all and any "experiment" without regard to social ethics. The whole edifice of "social media", with it's collateral damage of depressed and suicidal kids, is just a great experiment for the likes of Mark Zuckerberg. Nobody in nervous "academia" can get away with even the most gentle experiments now the ethical guardrails are in place (and mostly for good). But set up a "SV start-up" and you can do what you like with the data of billions, influence, propaganda, whatever...
- chefandy 3y ago
  "It's not unethical! They agreed to it! We completely disclosed it! It's not our fault that they didn't read paragraph 17 of the privacy policy under the little expandable bullet point that gives you the address to send a SASE to get an unlabeled QR code in the mail within in 6-8 weeks which will give access to the full details in plain English using our proprietary messaging service that requires a Facebook account, DOB, and Social Security Number to log into (covered under a separate privacy policy) using the last released version of Mosaic and a locally installed Java applet. If they don't want to do that, they can even subscribe to our PrivacyInfo Deluxe subscription at $8.95/mo (billed bi-annually) for an immediate PDF download."
  - nonrandomstring 3y ago
    Wow can I steal that? It's like DOuglas Adams' "..in a locked filing cabinet, outside a disused lavatory with a sign outside the door saying Beware Of The Leopard"
    - chefandy 3y ago
      Haha certainly. I officially deem that text to be in the public domain.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Those things interact in multiple ways, the arrogance and ignorance. Obviously, they always do: Arrogance requires ignorance in equal proportion: If you actually understand the complexity and uncertainty of reality, and then of your perception and thought about it, you can't be arrogant. The more arrogance, the more ignorance is needed. The cure for arrogance (and I know from personal experience!) is knowledge. The ignorance of the humanities and social sciences leads to the absurdity of their megalomania, arrogance, and policies. I used to think they knew better, and could only guess why they did what they did. Then I realized I was overlooking the more simple, obvious solution that was staring me in the face, that is staring all of us in the face: They are just ignorant; they really don't know these things. It's not true of all STEM, etc. but I had STEM-studying friends who brag that they never read a book. Many SV leaders and participants are from that crowd, apparently enough for it to be a powerful culture. They deride education, humanities, and social sciences, a parody of the ignorant that's been used in much of the literature (that they haven't read). And more sad, is that people I know that do know better, people with even PhDs in humanities and social sciences, have followed the lead of the ignorant, rather than vice-versa. Rather than educating the world, they buy into the ignorance and worship of it. The humanities and social sciences provide centuries of answers to the problems of today - not every answer, but we can certainly avoid this stupidity. We have everything we need, we just need to wake up to it.

umvi 3y ago

Debugging skills learned from software development are highly applicable for troubleshooting mechanical (car) and even medical problems so it's hard to take professionals in other fields seriously when they lack the same debugging ability. I've taken my car into the mechanic before only to be told the problem isn't reproducible so then I eliminate variables to figure it out myself and essentially do their job for them. Once I enumerate exactly how to reproduce, it's all but clear what the problem is and then they can replace the part.

chefandy 3y ago
> Debugging skills learned from software development are highly applicable for troubleshooting mechanical (car) and even medical problems so it's hard to take professionals other fields seriously when they lack the same debugging ability. I'm positive it wasn't intentional, but you've done a fine job buttressing my argument.
- umvi 3y ago
  True or false: An above average software developer that is good at debugging probably really is better at troubleshooting mechanical or medical problems than an average or below average mechanic or doctor? So then the problem may be that average software developers overestimate their own ability ;)
  - chefandy 3y ago
    > True or false: An above average software developer that is good at debugging probably really is better at troubleshooting mechanical or medical problems than an average or below average mechanic or doctor? > So then the problem may be that average software developers overestimate their own ability ;) Some really good evidence that the answer is "false" is that developers who think it's true will use a handful of personal experiences to levy sweeping judgements about millions of people in a vast array of disciplines, many of which tackle some of the hardest problems humanity has ever undertaken in fields that dwarf the complexity of computer science immeasurably.
  - cornstalks 3y ago
    False. Definitely false. And I say this as an above average software developer (which sounds stupidly cocky to even say).
  - hunter-gatherer 3y ago
    Are you being serious right now? Have you tallied the number of times you've outsmarted someone of another profession. Maybe you know more than you think you do about auto repair???
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      There's a strong bias toward confirmation. First, they fully expect it and are looking for it. Most of all, the actual professional - like any professional - has learned that it's unproductive to debate or educate the patient/customer; you just let them think they're smart and work around it. It's not your job to teach them the error of their ways, but to get your work done. In IT, I've had plenty of clients tell me the most ludicrous nonsense. You just work around it; IT is your job, not theirs; don't humiliate them. Be respectful to people; they have hard days too.
    - umvi 3y ago
      That's true, I haven't counted all the times the mechanic or doctor did their job well. I just tend to remember the times where they didn't do their job well. For example, my daughter had a rash, the doctor says to just put moisturizer on it. Doesn't seem to help so I research it for a few hours on google and conclude it's shingles. The doctor scoffs at my suggestion saying my daughter is way too young to have shingles and says to just continue with the moisturizer. We take her to a second doctor who confirms it's shingles. So yes, I would admit my anecdotes are probably a form of survivorship bias and I'm letting a few incompetent doctors and mechanics taint the ability of their peers.
actuallyalys 3y ago
Debugging skills transfer somewhat to solving problems in other domains. However, the reverse is also true and also you often need substantial expertise to actually apply your debugging skills. Honestly I could imagine a mechanic writing the opposite sentiment, saying they don’t respect software developers because they called a support line and the only advice was to restart the computer and then to reinstall it from scratch.
- chefandy 3y ago
  > Honestly I could imagine a mechanic writing the opposite sentiment Coming from working class social/work/familial environments, I know this archetype well: John Ratzenberger's "Cliff Clavin" from Cheers. It's a dated reference, but it fits really well. The stereotype involves carrying large rings of keys on their belts, showing that they're entrusted with many valuable things, and frequently interjecting others conversations with things like "let me show you out to use that thing [blue smoke]" and "no no no you got it all wrong. What you gotta do is..." In fact, I knew a particularly untalented auto mechanic who insisted that his capability was equivalent to a mechanical engineer when sadly, it wasn't even equivalent to most mechanics. None of us perfectly gauges our capabilities relative others, but some are so very much worse at it.

nonrandomstring 3y ago

Another dimension to this is the arrogant entitlement with which we as developers have treated the Internet, and the whole world in general, as our personal petri dish to conduct all and any "experiment" without regard to social ethics. The whole edifice of "social media", with it's collateral damage of depressed and suicidal kids, is just a great experiment for the likes of Mark Zuckerberg. Nobody in nervous "academia" can get away with even the most gentle experiments now the ethical guardrails are in place (and mostly for good). But set up a "SV start-up" and you can do what you like with the data of billions, influence, propaganda, whatever...

chefandy 3y ago
"It's not unethical! They agreed to it! We completely disclosed it! It's not our fault that they didn't read paragraph 17 of the privacy policy under the little expandable bullet point that gives you the address to send a SASE to get an unlabeled QR code in the mail within in 6-8 weeks which will give access to the full details in plain English using our proprietary messaging service that requires a Facebook account, DOB, and Social Security Number to log into (covered under a separate privacy policy) using the last released version of Mosaic and a locally installed Java applet. If they don't want to do that, they can even subscribe to our PrivacyInfo Deluxe subscription at $8.95/mo (billed bi-annually) for an immediate PDF download."
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  Wow can I steal that? It's like DOuglas Adams' "..in a locked filing cabinet, outside a disused lavatory with a sign outside the door saying Beware Of The Leopard"
  - chefandy 3y ago
    Haha certainly. I officially deem that text to be in the public domain.
wolverine876 3y ago
Those things interact in multiple ways, the arrogance and ignorance. Obviously, they always do: Arrogance requires ignorance in equal proportion: If you actually understand the complexity and uncertainty of reality, and then of your perception and thought about it, you can't be arrogant. The more arrogance, the more ignorance is needed. The cure for arrogance (and I know from personal experience!) is knowledge. The ignorance of the humanities and social sciences leads to the absurdity of their megalomania, arrogance, and policies. I used to think they knew better, and could only guess why they did what they did. Then I realized I was overlooking the more simple, obvious solution that was staring me in the face, that is staring all of us in the face: They are just ignorant; they really don't know these things. It's not true of all STEM, etc. but I had STEM-studying friends who brag that they never read a book. Many SV leaders and participants are from that crowd, apparently enough for it to be a powerful culture. They deride education, humanities, and social sciences, a parody of the ignorant that's been used in much of the literature (that they haven't read). And more sad, is that people I know that do know better, people with even PhDs in humanities and social sciences, have followed the lead of the ignorant, rather than vice-versa. Rather than educating the world, they buy into the ignorance and worship of it. The humanities and social sciences provide centuries of answers to the problems of today - not every answer, but we can certainly avoid this stupidity. We have everything we need, we just need to wake up to it.