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> except for maybe Uber, Google Drive, and games I understand Drive working better as a native app; it needs to be able to provide a virtual filesystem to the

> except for maybe Uber, Google Drive, and games I understand Drive working better as a native app; it needs to be able to provide a virtual filesystem to the OS and do background syncing and such. But why Uber? Uber has (or maybe had) a mobile site that works fine for requesting rides and basically everything the app can do. I don't see what value Uber being a native app adds for the user. The same goes for most mobile games; they tend to have simple graphics that the browser is perfectly capable of rendering with great performance, and they tend to reinvent all common UI components so losing access to native system buttons and such wouldn't make a difference. PWAs should also provide plenty of storage for local save files and other game data. The exception of course being games that really push the system to its limits. I don't expect, say, Death Stranding or the RE4 remake to work well without direct access to native graphics acceleration, and they're too large to load as a single webpage. I will reiterate though that this is not the case for most mobile apps, even extremely profitable F2P ones that would benefit greatly from an extra 30% revenue. Why then do they not target the web? My gut feel is that it's because mobile users are trained to look in the app store for apps and games, not the web, while desktop users expect apps to be available in the browser with the exception of some professional tools and high-end games. That is to say, it's largely a cultural problem. Of course, Apple's lackluster support or PWAs doesn't help.

pmarreck 3y ago
Uber could have been coded to a PWA just fine. Parent comment is simply unknowledgeable. It's funny because the very first thing that Steve Jobs pushed when the first iPhone came out was PWA's, essentially, and not an App Store, which didn't exist yet... and the same API's are still available in Webkit I believe
mplewis 3y ago
Uber provides features like push notifications and Dynamic Island support to users. Web Push only became available recently, and it’s only available if you install the web app to the Home Screen.
rchaud 3y ago
Uber had an excellent PWA, m.uber.com. I used it for years, but it didn't seem to work right on a new phone, with some UI elements not visible or off-screen, so I went back to the app.
- jowea 3y ago
  I just opened it and it seems to be a simplified version of the app lacking a lot of features like stops and groceries. Curiously I just realized it's the same view I get from the app on my phone a lot of the time due to some kind of error when loading the normal app view.
ajross 3y ago
> I understand Drive working better as a native app; it needs to be able to provide a virtual filesystem to the OS and do background syncing and such. That's a circular dependency though. You want that stuff because you want to use Drive with native apps and not web apps. But Drive is a first class backend (actually even more featureful, frankly) to web apps too. Basically the native Drive client is for native/legacy interop, not a barrier to a PWA future.
depressedpanda 3y ago
> Of course, Apple's lackluster support or PWAs doesn't help. Holding the web back is entirely intentional and makes strategic sense from Apple's point of view. They're well aware that a majority of apps would work perfectly fine as web apps -- but that also removes Apple from the equation. Only allowing Safari on iOS and intentionally gimping it solves the problem. I mean, I can't even blame them. Can't lose out on that sweet 30% cut, y'know? I'm only disappointed that legislation took this long to catch up to their shenanigans, and only in the EU.
- no_wizard 3y ago
  Honestly if their new revenue share scheme stands up to the court I could see them taking 27% from PWAs as a possible future. It would be the only thing that spurs them to make it more robust. I don’t agree with it at all to be perfectly clear. I’m only postulating that realistically the only way Apple takes PWAs to first class status is if they get a cut. Its rather unfortunate
  - depressedpanda 3y ago
    You're speaking like Apple will get away with their malicious compliance and petulant behavior. I'm not so sure they will, now that the cat is (finally!) out of the bag.
    - no_wizard 3y ago
      I'm not as hopeful that globally Apple will face regulatory scrutiny as much as it has in the EU, and even then, the EU only goes so far as well. They have as of yet had nothing to say about Apple's solution to their regulations around this
      - depressedpanda 3y ago
        True. However, if the EU is silent because it considers Apple's reaction acceptable, the new laws are meaningless, unnecessary, a total waste of time, and an embarrassment to the EU. So my hope is that they realize this and the silence is due to the EU preparing to put Apple in its place.
epistasis 3y ago
It's interesting because Apple had to be pressured into even allowing native mobile apps. When the iPhone was launched they told everyone to develop web apps.
- raydev 3y ago
  There was a lot of internal pressure as well, smooth scrolling was such a key product feature that they eventually admitted it was impossible to do in a browser if there was any complexity to the app at all.
kmeisthax 3y ago
Uber has the same problem that Death Stranding and Resident Evil have: you can't keep shittons of data cached on-device unless you have it installed as an app and not a webpage. Uber specifically needs to support someone traveling from Sao Paulo, Brazil to Mumbai, India without needing to have more than a whisper of connectivity at their destination. The way you do that is by keeping the UI for every payment provider in the world in the app. F2P mobile games need to be able to send you notification spam, because they're based around habituation and addiction. You couldn't do that in MobileSafari until very recently[0]. [0] Supposedly. I pinned Google Fi to my homescreen on my iPad, it asked for notification permissions, I see a notification count badge on it's app icon, but it still doesn't actually notify me when I get a text message or call.
- ncann 3y ago
  I haven't run into no-network situation with Uber ever since every airport has wifi nowadays, but in that situation with no network, how does local on-device Uber data help to book a ride?
  - kmeisthax 3y ago
    It's not "no network", it's "minimal network". i.e. bad wifi or garbage 3G. Or you're data roaming, in which case you'd get charged out the nose if the app decided to redownload stuff.
  - p_l 3y ago
    Imagine spotty, dropping connection, low bandwidth. You do not want to load big chunk of JS because it was never cached, or as Uber used to do, download all the possible new promos every time you opened the app... You want to squeeze through the minimal data you need to arrange your core business function.
p_l 3y ago
Uber's native app and its focus on acting partially like webapp to dynamically download new content based on locality is one of the worst aspects using Uber, and is even worse with PWA. All it takes is for network connectivity to be a little bit spotty (admittedly, Uber made it work a little bit better these days). In the past, I've been more than once frustrated to rage from the fact that Uber couldn't just grab my A-GPS position, ping for address and send a short packet to order a car, but it had to download potentially megabytes of promo html before it let me actually do anything useful. Avoiding it with PWA is afaik even harder (currently looking exactly into making PWA because I don't want to deal with iOS).
dwaite 3y ago
Uber gains benefit of functioning better under low/no connectivity, better location access and local/remote notifications as well as visual integration (e.g. showing ETAs and updates in the Dynamic Island or on the Lock Screen). Some of these (increased caching and remote notifications) you can get on iOS if you install a web app as a Home Screen icon, but as just a website Uber might not get their minimum bar of functionality for widespread use. So far, I haven't seen any large companies have installed web apps as their go-to-market strategy.

pmarreck 3y ago

Uber could have been coded to a PWA just fine. Parent comment is simply unknowledgeable. It's funny because the very first thing that Steve Jobs pushed when the first iPhone came out was PWA's, essentially, and not an App Store, which didn't exist yet... and the same API's are still available in Webkit I believe

mplewis 3y ago

Uber provides features like push notifications and Dynamic Island support to users. Web Push only became available recently, and it’s only available if you install the web app to the Home Screen.

rchaud 3y ago

Uber had an excellent PWA, m.uber.com. I used it for years, but it didn't seem to work right on a new phone, with some UI elements not visible or off-screen, so I went back to the app.

jowea 3y ago
I just opened it and it seems to be a simplified version of the app lacking a lot of features like stops and groceries. Curiously I just realized it's the same view I get from the app on my phone a lot of the time due to some kind of error when loading the normal app view.

ajross 3y ago

> I understand Drive working better as a native app; it needs to be able to provide a virtual filesystem to the OS and do background syncing and such. That's a circular dependency though. You want that stuff because you want to use Drive with native apps and not web apps. But Drive is a first class backend (actually even more featureful, frankly) to web apps too. Basically the native Drive client is for native/legacy interop, not a barrier to a PWA future.

depressedpanda 3y ago

> Of course, Apple's lackluster support or PWAs doesn't help. Holding the web back is entirely intentional and makes strategic sense from Apple's point of view. They're well aware that a majority of apps would work perfectly fine as web apps -- but that also removes Apple from the equation. Only allowing Safari on iOS and intentionally gimping it solves the problem. I mean, I can't even blame them. Can't lose out on that sweet 30% cut, y'know? I'm only disappointed that legislation took this long to catch up to their shenanigans, and only in the EU.

no_wizard 3y ago
Honestly if their new revenue share scheme stands up to the court I could see them taking 27% from PWAs as a possible future. It would be the only thing that spurs them to make it more robust. I don’t agree with it at all to be perfectly clear. I’m only postulating that realistically the only way Apple takes PWAs to first class status is if they get a cut. Its rather unfortunate
- depressedpanda 3y ago
  You're speaking like Apple will get away with their malicious compliance and petulant behavior. I'm not so sure they will, now that the cat is (finally!) out of the bag.
  - no_wizard 3y ago
    I'm not as hopeful that globally Apple will face regulatory scrutiny as much as it has in the EU, and even then, the EU only goes so far as well. They have as of yet had nothing to say about Apple's solution to their regulations around this
    - depressedpanda 3y ago
      True. However, if the EU is silent because it considers Apple's reaction acceptable, the new laws are meaningless, unnecessary, a total waste of time, and an embarrassment to the EU. So my hope is that they realize this and the silence is due to the EU preparing to put Apple in its place.

epistasis 3y ago

It's interesting because Apple had to be pressured into even allowing native mobile apps. When the iPhone was launched they told everyone to develop web apps.

raydev 3y ago
There was a lot of internal pressure as well, smooth scrolling was such a key product feature that they eventually admitted it was impossible to do in a browser if there was any complexity to the app at all.

kmeisthax 3y ago

Uber has the same problem that Death Stranding and Resident Evil have: you can't keep shittons of data cached on-device unless you have it installed as an app and not a webpage. Uber specifically needs to support someone traveling from Sao Paulo, Brazil to Mumbai, India without needing to have more than a whisper of connectivity at their destination. The way you do that is by keeping the UI for every payment provider in the world in the app. F2P mobile games need to be able to send you notification spam, because they're based around habituation and addiction. You couldn't do that in MobileSafari until very recently[0]. [0] Supposedly. I pinned Google Fi to my homescreen on my iPad, it asked for notification permissions, I see a notification count badge on it's app icon, but it still doesn't actually notify me when I get a text message or call.

ncann 3y ago
I haven't run into no-network situation with Uber ever since every airport has wifi nowadays, but in that situation with no network, how does local on-device Uber data help to book a ride?
- kmeisthax 3y ago
  It's not "no network", it's "minimal network". i.e. bad wifi or garbage 3G. Or you're data roaming, in which case you'd get charged out the nose if the app decided to redownload stuff.
- p_l 3y ago
  Imagine spotty, dropping connection, low bandwidth. You do not want to load big chunk of JS because it was never cached, or as Uber used to do, download all the possible new promos every time you opened the app... You want to squeeze through the minimal data you need to arrange your core business function.

p_l 3y ago

Uber's native app and its focus on acting partially like webapp to dynamically download new content based on locality is one of the worst aspects using Uber, and is even worse with PWA. All it takes is for network connectivity to be a little bit spotty (admittedly, Uber made it work a little bit better these days). In the past, I've been more than once frustrated to rage from the fact that Uber couldn't just grab my A-GPS position, ping for address and send a short packet to order a car, but it had to download potentially megabytes of promo html before it let me actually do anything useful. Avoiding it with PWA is afaik even harder (currently looking exactly into making PWA because I don't want to deal with iOS).

dwaite 3y ago

Uber gains benefit of functioning better under low/no connectivity, better location access and local/remote notifications as well as visual integration (e.g. showing ETAs and updates in the Dynamic Island or on the Lock Screen). Some of these (increased caching and remote notifications) you can get on iOS if you install a web app as a Home Screen icon, but as just a website Uber might not get their minimum bar of functionality for widespread use. So far, I haven't seen any large companies have installed web apps as their go-to-market strategy.