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> Now older and wiser, candidly a lot of folks would be well served by default blue links, og html submit buttons and tables for layouts. A fair bit of modern U

> Now older and wiser, candidly a lot of folks would be well served by default blue links, og html submit buttons and tables for layouts. A fair bit of modern UI is complete trash: it's the product of a designer and a product person putting the next bullet point on their resume. If I were emperor of the world I’d make every consumer program pass a battery of tests that included demonstrating sufficient usability for a panel of users from a nursing home, a panel of users with sub-90 IQ who were in a stressful environment and trying to complete other tasks at the same time, blind users, deaf users, et c. I expect the outcome would be a hell of a lot less twee “on brand” UI elements and a lot more leaning on proven design systems and frameworks, including fucking crucially for appearance. And also a lot less popping shit up on the screen without user interaction (omg those damn “look what’s new!” sorts of pop ups or focused tabs—congrats, some of your users are now totally lost)

zer00eyz 3y ago
>>> users from a nursing home, a panel of users with sub-90 IQ who were in a stressful environment and trying to complete other tasks at the same time, blind users, deaf users, et c. Or we could just give the Product manager, designer, and JS engineer a 5 year old laptop with 8 gigs of ram at least 10 browser plug ins and every corporate security package... We have gone from "go fast, break things" to moving at the speed of stupid. Slowing these three groups down might help.
- BlueTemplar 3y ago
  Funny that you think that 8 gigs of RAM would be low end 5 years ago...
- brezelgoring 3y ago
  Make it 4 and have a 1st gen i3 and we got a plan. Most of my family has old Toshiba Satellite laptops from the early 2010s that they don’t throw away because they cost a grand when they bought it.
- AtlasBarfed 3y ago
  Why not just come out and say you hate JavaScript :)
tbitrust 3y ago
> a panel of users with sub-90 IQ who were in a stressful environment and trying to complete other tasks at the same time, blind users, deaf users, et c. For me, the first task would be to make absolutely sure that I block any apps designed by you. Such lack of empathy in your wording proves that you cannot possibly be a decent, half-decent, or even mediocre UI designer.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- wharvle 3y ago
  … lack of empathy? Where?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- zer00eyz 3y ago
  “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” — George Carlin You get that when I was on the other side of that 2 way mirror one of the qualifications to be a user was "can you use a mouse". As late as 2005 people being able to navigate a basic web form was quite the challenge. Find someone far removed from tech and ask them if they have used ChatGPT. That IQ 90 user stressed out of their mind isnt that far from reality. Go look at the "bad/poor/low quality" content on Facebook, or YouTube or if your brave tick tock. That is the person you're writing an app for.
  - tbitrust 3y ago
    I don't think that people "far removed from tech" are "sub-90 IQ" (a "delicate" euphemism for "stupid"). And I don't think that people on facebook, youtube or tick tock are "sub-90 IQ". Thanks for making clear that it's what was implied by the original commenter. That's lack of empathy coupled with sheer, crass ignorance.
    - 3y ago
karaterobot 3y ago
If you aren't making a consumer product for nursing home patients with sub-90 IQs, then you'd be wasting your time, and the feedback you got from the exercise wouldn't be useful. In fact, any decisions you made based on it could be wrong. The point isn't to design for the lowest common denominator, but for the users you will actually have, and usability test participants should be recruited with that in mind. There is some merit to what I assume is your underlying argument, but the way you phrase it isn't helpful.
- wharvle 3y ago
  A whole lot of us will be mentally impaired sooner or later. Our experience with software when that happens is sad for everyone but bad UI designers. For them, it’s justice.
  - brailsafe 3y ago
    A UI designer does a good job if the person who's paying them thinks they did a good job, not whether or not they actually followed best practices, unless that's how the work gets approved. A frontend developer does a good job if their tickets are done and their boss likes them, which may or may not include actual quality work that's accessible or usable. That's the secret I wish I'd known when I started working, could have avoided the extra personal cost of trying produce quality results despite there being no incentive structure for it.
    - alpaca128 3y ago
      Just like morality and law are not the same, the objective quality of a UI designer's work doesn't necessarily have anything in common with their employer's preferences. You're right that only one of those is paid well, but that's not what GP was talking about.
      - brailsafe 3y ago
        > You're right that only one of those is paid well, but that's not what GP was talking about. I didn't say anything about how much someone is paid, just that it is often a job, and whether you have a job depends overwhelmingly on whether the person paying you is convinced that you're doing it well, which may or may not relate to the objective merit of the work. It doesn't matter if you're making $150k or $20k, but it's not wise to prioritize things that nobody paying you didn't ask for. The exceptions are of course things that don't pay at all, in which case your goal is still probably to get the best job you can done under the constraints provided. If those are too tight, things get cut, or you don't sign up for it.
wegfawefgawefg 3y ago
Too strict. I implore you to reconsider.
zubairq 3y ago
I kind of like this idea of making sure that any UI passes some sanity checks before it is released
V-2 3y ago
> a panel of users with sub-90 IQ who were in a stressful environment and trying to complete other tasks at the same time So long Vim or Emacs ;) I understand that your example is somewhat tongue in cheek, serving illustrative purposes, but I think good UX is about trade-offs more than a one-dimensional spectrum of convenient vs. inconvenient, and you can't optimize it for the sake of stressed out sub-90 IQ users without hurting the usability for some other groups.

zer00eyz 3y ago

>>> users from a nursing home, a panel of users with sub-90 IQ who were in a stressful environment and trying to complete other tasks at the same time, blind users, deaf users, et c. Or we could just give the Product manager, designer, and JS engineer a 5 year old laptop with 8 gigs of ram at least 10 browser plug ins and every corporate security package... We have gone from "go fast, break things" to moving at the speed of stupid. Slowing these three groups down might help.

BlueTemplar 3y ago
Funny that you think that 8 gigs of RAM would be low end 5 years ago...
brezelgoring 3y ago
Make it 4 and have a 1st gen i3 and we got a plan. Most of my family has old Toshiba Satellite laptops from the early 2010s that they don’t throw away because they cost a grand when they bought it.
AtlasBarfed 3y ago
Why not just come out and say you hate JavaScript :)

tbitrust 3y ago

> a panel of users with sub-90 IQ who were in a stressful environment and trying to complete other tasks at the same time, blind users, deaf users, et c. For me, the first task would be to make absolutely sure that I block any apps designed by you. Such lack of empathy in your wording proves that you cannot possibly be a decent, half-decent, or even mediocre UI designer.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
wharvle 3y ago
… lack of empathy? Where?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
zer00eyz 3y ago
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” — George Carlin You get that when I was on the other side of that 2 way mirror one of the qualifications to be a user was "can you use a mouse". As late as 2005 people being able to navigate a basic web form was quite the challenge. Find someone far removed from tech and ask them if they have used ChatGPT. That IQ 90 user stressed out of their mind isnt that far from reality. Go look at the "bad/poor/low quality" content on Facebook, or YouTube or if your brave tick tock. That is the person you're writing an app for.
- tbitrust 3y ago
  I don't think that people "far removed from tech" are "sub-90 IQ" (a "delicate" euphemism for "stupid"). And I don't think that people on facebook, youtube or tick tock are "sub-90 IQ". Thanks for making clear that it's what was implied by the original commenter. That's lack of empathy coupled with sheer, crass ignorance.
  - 3y ago

karaterobot 3y ago

If you aren't making a consumer product for nursing home patients with sub-90 IQs, then you'd be wasting your time, and the feedback you got from the exercise wouldn't be useful. In fact, any decisions you made based on it could be wrong. The point isn't to design for the lowest common denominator, but for the users you will actually have, and usability test participants should be recruited with that in mind. There is some merit to what I assume is your underlying argument, but the way you phrase it isn't helpful.

wharvle 3y ago
A whole lot of us will be mentally impaired sooner or later. Our experience with software when that happens is sad for everyone but bad UI designers. For them, it’s justice.
- brailsafe 3y ago
  A UI designer does a good job if the person who's paying them thinks they did a good job, not whether or not they actually followed best practices, unless that's how the work gets approved. A frontend developer does a good job if their tickets are done and their boss likes them, which may or may not include actual quality work that's accessible or usable. That's the secret I wish I'd known when I started working, could have avoided the extra personal cost of trying produce quality results despite there being no incentive structure for it.
  - alpaca128 3y ago
    Just like morality and law are not the same, the objective quality of a UI designer's work doesn't necessarily have anything in common with their employer's preferences. You're right that only one of those is paid well, but that's not what GP was talking about.
    - brailsafe 3y ago
      > You're right that only one of those is paid well, but that's not what GP was talking about. I didn't say anything about how much someone is paid, just that it is often a job, and whether you have a job depends overwhelmingly on whether the person paying you is convinced that you're doing it well, which may or may not relate to the objective merit of the work. It doesn't matter if you're making $150k or $20k, but it's not wise to prioritize things that nobody paying you didn't ask for. The exceptions are of course things that don't pay at all, in which case your goal is still probably to get the best job you can done under the constraints provided. If those are too tight, things get cut, or you don't sign up for it.

wegfawefgawefg 3y ago

Too strict. I implore you to reconsider.

zubairq 3y ago

I kind of like this idea of making sure that any UI passes some sanity checks before it is released

V-2 3y ago

> a panel of users with sub-90 IQ who were in a stressful environment and trying to complete other tasks at the same time So long Vim or Emacs ;) I understand that your example is somewhat tongue in cheek, serving illustrative purposes, but I think good UX is about trade-offs more than a one-dimensional spectrum of convenient vs. inconvenient, and you can't optimize it for the sake of stressed out sub-90 IQ users without hurting the usability for some other groups.