8 ms·

I have never understood how Apple gets away with it and even more than that gets a huge amount of love. Whereas, if Microsoft just looks at you wrong, pitchfork

by bmitc 3y ago

I have never understood how Apple gets away with it and even more than that gets a huge amount of love. Whereas, if Microsoft just looks at you wrong, pitchforks are out. I'm not cheerleading any company here, but it has been frustrating in my career where people absolutely refuse to touch or even consider anything Microsoft related but love their Apple computer. Apple is probably hundreds of times more agressive, more stubborn, and moat building than Microsoft. Microsoft's dev tools are some of the most open in the world for a big company, certainly more so than Apple and Google.

hnfong 3y ago
As an Apple user, the experience is generally fine, especially when compared to Microsoft. Most of the complaints about Apple seem to have come from devs. And in contrast, Microsoft [in]famously loves developers (Balmer on stage...)
- bmitc 3y ago
  I was an Apple user and even fanboy for many years. I left because they ignored macOS and then started making it iOS like. I have far less issues on Windows than I do on macOS. Apple sucks dealing with anything that doesn't have their name on it. External monitors have terrible support because Apple refuses to implement a specific protocol making that nice, like everyone else does. You basically have to use Apple's monitors or their overpriced officially supported LG monitors they sell in the Apple Store if you want an integrated monitor experience. Several other issues with Apple exist with peripherals. I have to make special router settings in my home because my partner's work Macbook can't switch between the mesh network. My partner also had to get IT to give her admin access so that she could rename iTunes because it was the only reliable way to keep iTunes from opening every time her non-Apple Bluetooth headphones connected. Search about what it takes to rename an app like iTunes. It is literally insane.
bitwize 3y ago
Apple's entire stock in trade is "computing as it should be". Their stuff is the coolest platform ever to exist, which means that developing for their gear is like getting into Studio 54: only the hottest and coolest are allowed in, permitting anything less would tarnish the club's reputation. Which sucks for most devs but it's part of being the coolest. Microsoft just wants to dominate. They don't care if the UX is garbage, as long as the user doesn't have a choice.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  > Which sucks for most devs but it's part of being the coolest. What if we determine that the "coolness" motivation is a scapegoat for anticompetitive behavior? AT&T could have argued the same thing but I'm not sure if the coolness of their infrastructure would have saved them from a breakup.
- realusername 3y ago
  > only the hottest and coolest are allowed in, permitting anything less would tarnish the club's reputation It's kind of a cult in other words, personally I'm not part of it and not afraid of blasphemy when I see stuff broken.
  - bitwize 3y ago
    It would be kind of a cult, if Apple products weren't more pleasant and joyous to use by far than any of the alternatives.
    - realusername 3y ago
      Experience is subjective I'd say, I certainly disagree with that after using the old iPhone of my wife for a year to not make more ewaste. I found the whole thing buggy and confusing, I finally got rid of it after an error loop when installing apps meant that I had to format it again to fix it. I'm sure most users do love it though, to each their own. There's certainly enough space for all kinds of products and all kinds of consumers.
    - bigstrat2003 3y ago
      They aren't. I find them worse by far than any alternative.
      - coliveira 3y ago
        Sorry, but I use Mac and Windows computers (by job requirement). Windows is and has always been clunky and difficult to use. Maybe you don't feel that, but it is a fact. I wound't spend any time with windows if I had a choice.
javcasas 3y ago
> Whereas, if Microsoft just looks at you wrong, pitchforks are out. Not to nitpick, but Microsoft looking wrong at you is more like the Eye of Sauron looking wrong at you. Just pointing to the gigantic amount of dark patterns on Microsoft products, especially Windows.
- bmitc 3y ago
  Apple's iOS and macOS have very similar dark patterns, but they go unmentioned. Yes, Windows has been making some really bad decisions with the Windows and Edge products, and it is really annoying. But at least their dev tooling is top notch, and you can easily interact with actual Microsoft employees in their repos. It's a nice experience.
  - javcasas 3y ago
    > Apple's iOS and macOS have very similar dark patterns, but they go unmentioned So you agree pitchforks should be out both for Apple and Microsoft. Count me in.
    - bmitc 3y ago
      Yes, I agree. But Microsoft should recieve some kudos for VS Code and .NET. What they've achieved is quite astounding. No one else has done what they have with the transition of .NET. Although, there is definitely an argument that it should have been cross-platform since the beginning. I don't understand why these companies make the OS level decisions they do though. They make billions. You think they could relax and try to capture users by making them happy instead of kidnapping them.
pmontra 3y ago
> how Apple [...] gets a huge amount of love. The wind is changing. If somebody dared to write a comment on HN criticizing Apple in the 10s, downvotes rained down on that comment. HN's policy is to downvote to express disagreement, among the other things. That's not been the case anymore since a few years. This very thread would have been nearly impossible 10 years ago, maybe 5 years ago too.
bigstrat2003 3y ago
It's because Apple doesn't have users, they have fanboys. Apple customers aren't there because of the quality of the product, they're there because they've been convinced that Apple is cool.
- lm411 3y ago
  I think you mistyped the URL - this is Hacker News, not Slashdot. Let's keep the discussion intelligent and not bother with the mud slinging or other insults. An interesting observation is that users of Apple products rarely go out of their way to insult others based on their choice of hardware / OS, while users of Android (and Windows & Linux to a lesser extent) seem to get quite needlessly enraged at the Apple users. No one is forcing Apple products on you guys, chill out. As someone who uses iOS, Android, Windows, Linux, Mac, and FreeBSD on a daily basis, I believe all of them have their pros and cons. On topic: Apple used to quite strongly prefer (and tell) developers to use web apps when appropriate instead of a native app. As someone that has helped many companies develop apps - the biggest complaint about not having a native app is that they won't be listed in the App Stores without one. Many of the apps I've helped develop could be web apps, but, companies really want to see their app in the App Stores.

by bmitc 3y ago

hnfong 3y ago

As an Apple user, the experience is generally fine, especially when compared to Microsoft. Most of the complaints about Apple seem to have come from devs. And in contrast, Microsoft [in]famously loves developers (Balmer on stage...)

bmitc 3y ago
I was an Apple user and even fanboy for many years. I left because they ignored macOS and then started making it iOS like. I have far less issues on Windows than I do on macOS. Apple sucks dealing with anything that doesn't have their name on it. External monitors have terrible support because Apple refuses to implement a specific protocol making that nice, like everyone else does. You basically have to use Apple's monitors or their overpriced officially supported LG monitors they sell in the Apple Store if you want an integrated monitor experience. Several other issues with Apple exist with peripherals. I have to make special router settings in my home because my partner's work Macbook can't switch between the mesh network. My partner also had to get IT to give her admin access so that she could rename iTunes because it was the only reliable way to keep iTunes from opening every time her non-Apple Bluetooth headphones connected. Search about what it takes to rename an app like iTunes. It is literally insane.

bitwize 3y ago

Apple's entire stock in trade is "computing as it should be". Their stuff is the coolest platform ever to exist, which means that developing for their gear is like getting into Studio 54: only the hottest and coolest are allowed in, permitting anything less would tarnish the club's reputation. Which sucks for most devs but it's part of being the coolest. Microsoft just wants to dominate. They don't care if the UX is garbage, as long as the user doesn't have a choice.

smoldesu 3y ago
> Which sucks for most devs but it's part of being the coolest. What if we determine that the "coolness" motivation is a scapegoat for anticompetitive behavior? AT&T could have argued the same thing but I'm not sure if the coolness of their infrastructure would have saved them from a breakup.
realusername 3y ago
> only the hottest and coolest are allowed in, permitting anything less would tarnish the club's reputation It's kind of a cult in other words, personally I'm not part of it and not afraid of blasphemy when I see stuff broken.
- bitwize 3y ago
  It would be kind of a cult, if Apple products weren't more pleasant and joyous to use by far than any of the alternatives.
  - realusername 3y ago
    Experience is subjective I'd say, I certainly disagree with that after using the old iPhone of my wife for a year to not make more ewaste. I found the whole thing buggy and confusing, I finally got rid of it after an error loop when installing apps meant that I had to format it again to fix it. I'm sure most users do love it though, to each their own. There's certainly enough space for all kinds of products and all kinds of consumers.
  - bigstrat2003 3y ago
    They aren't. I find them worse by far than any alternative.
    - coliveira 3y ago
      Sorry, but I use Mac and Windows computers (by job requirement). Windows is and has always been clunky and difficult to use. Maybe you don't feel that, but it is a fact. I wound't spend any time with windows if I had a choice.

javcasas 3y ago

> Whereas, if Microsoft just looks at you wrong, pitchforks are out. Not to nitpick, but Microsoft looking wrong at you is more like the Eye of Sauron looking wrong at you. Just pointing to the gigantic amount of dark patterns on Microsoft products, especially Windows.

bmitc 3y ago
Apple's iOS and macOS have very similar dark patterns, but they go unmentioned. Yes, Windows has been making some really bad decisions with the Windows and Edge products, and it is really annoying. But at least their dev tooling is top notch, and you can easily interact with actual Microsoft employees in their repos. It's a nice experience.
- javcasas 3y ago
  > Apple's iOS and macOS have very similar dark patterns, but they go unmentioned So you agree pitchforks should be out both for Apple and Microsoft. Count me in.
  - bmitc 3y ago
    Yes, I agree. But Microsoft should recieve some kudos for VS Code and .NET. What they've achieved is quite astounding. No one else has done what they have with the transition of .NET. Although, there is definitely an argument that it should have been cross-platform since the beginning. I don't understand why these companies make the OS level decisions they do though. They make billions. You think they could relax and try to capture users by making them happy instead of kidnapping them.

pmontra 3y ago

> how Apple [...] gets a huge amount of love. The wind is changing. If somebody dared to write a comment on HN criticizing Apple in the 10s, downvotes rained down on that comment. HN's policy is to downvote to express disagreement, among the other things. That's not been the case anymore since a few years. This very thread would have been nearly impossible 10 years ago, maybe 5 years ago too.

bigstrat2003 3y ago

It's because Apple doesn't have users, they have fanboys. Apple customers aren't there because of the quality of the product, they're there because they've been convinced that Apple is cool.

lm411 3y ago
I think you mistyped the URL - this is Hacker News, not Slashdot. Let's keep the discussion intelligent and not bother with the mud slinging or other insults. An interesting observation is that users of Apple products rarely go out of their way to insult others based on their choice of hardware / OS, while users of Android (and Windows & Linux to a lesser extent) seem to get quite needlessly enraged at the Apple users. No one is forcing Apple products on you guys, chill out. As someone who uses iOS, Android, Windows, Linux, Mac, and FreeBSD on a daily basis, I believe all of them have their pros and cons. On topic: Apple used to quite strongly prefer (and tell) developers to use web apps when appropriate instead of a native app. As someone that has helped many companies develop apps - the biggest complaint about not having a native app is that they won't be listed in the App Stores without one. Many of the apps I've helped develop could be web apps, but, companies really want to see their app in the App Stores.