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Isn't fixating on "privilege" a way of avoiding more troubling thoughts far beyond guilt? As if God made some people rich and some poor, and that's the way the

Isn't fixating on "privilege" a way of avoiding more troubling thoughts far beyond guilt? As if God made some people rich and some poor, and that's the way the world is. Let's all say a prayer for them? The Protestant work ethic once contained many good things like a sense of duty, efficiency, self-discipline and so on. Emancipation of others, and helping others out of poverty was always built into that! But under late stage capitalism it becomes disfigured and twisted. That guilt is used against us. We make "work" into something that must be miserable by definition. And some of us even revel in that self-flagellation. We stop distinguishing between laborious chores and work as art and living. "Money and survival" eclipse all else. The abject penury of that mind-set is a sort of work in itself. It need not be. Ten thousand years of artisan labour, craftsmanship, labours of love building cathedrals and monuments, cooking delicious meals... Half of all the work done in the world is childcare and caring for the old. It's the power relations of capitalism that make work shitty, and we all know it. There's nothing "fundamental" about it. We are at a very unique and hopefully short moment in history where modern employers will go out of their way to fit suffering, humiliation and self-loathing into the job-description, maybe in order to feel justified for what they pay - often cynically hiding behind false notions of efficiency and necessity, security or whatever. Some of the most miserable and fucked-up people I've ever met work in banking, advertising. and other places of "privilege".

ttt11199907 3y ago
I'm not sure many workers building cathedrals considered it a labor of love. Particularly those cathedrals that took many generations to build. > Half of all the work done in the world is childcare and caring for the old. This is a really profound statement, thanks for making me think slightly differently!
- penjelly 3y ago
  > I'm not sure many workers building cathedrals considered it a labor of love. Particularly those cathedrals that took many generations to build youre kidding right? of course some of them were proud of their contribution.
  - nonrandomstring 3y ago
    Guess we could think of the Giza Pyramids as a counter-example. Plenty of religious monuments got built on the bones of slaves. But I wonder, factoring out the physical toil, whether future generations might look at giant technological monoliths, maybe The Internet of 2100 and say; "Those techies were unhappy slaves. they laboured in basements and cubicles. They wrote code just to eat! It was obscenely inhuman." Or maybe historians might pore through HN archives and say; "Those who believed in the Great Singularity", devoted their lives out of religious fervour. Many of them wrote code without being paid, just because they had a vision. " Or maybe there will be no trace of us. Anyway, history can tell us facts about what happened, but maybe isn't so good at telling us what went on the minds and dreams of people past. edit: s/Interest/Internet/g
    - penjelly 3y ago
      > Guess we could think of the Giza Pyramids as a counter-example. Plenty of religious monuments got built on the bones of slaves. im not arguing it they died during construction. My point is that a lot of them were undoubtedly proud of the work they produced, not even all the workers on the pyramids were slaves so thats pretty telling imo. Also i am one of those "techies" and i have been involved in projects i didnt initially have passion for, and in all cases i ended up coming around because it was something i worked on daily. Thats what im saying happened with the workers in churches/pyramids, surely some of them.
      - ttt11199907 3y ago
        Is this saying that slavery is justified as long as the goal is something "monumental"? As long as some slaves are "proud" of the work they're being _forced_ to do _on penalty of death_ then we can at least rest assured that their pride in humanity was boosted at the amazing spectacle of a giant pile of rocks built on behalf of an oppressor. Oof.
t0bia_s 3y ago
What would be a fix for capitalism that cripples our attitude to work?
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  > What would be a fix for capitalism that cripples our attitude to work? Us. Our culture. FWIW I'll try to explain a little more. I mean, that's a great question but I think it's the wrong question, if you don't mind me saying that. Nobody can see outside the logic of their own epoch. Capitalism can't be "fixed", because it's just what it is. If we "fixed" it, it wouldn't be capitalism any more, it would be something else. In fact it's been many different things over the past centuries as it transforms, much as people like Smith and Marx predicted. Most people at this point say "Okay, smarty.. so what will you replace it with?". And again, wrong question. There is no list of "systems" that could simply be plugged in as replacements. That kind of nonsense leads to great leaps into famine and 20 million starving. Politics is not software like that. At best it's a set of potential slow paths that all start at where we are now. It is not even a set of destinations, because every end point we pursue changes with the dynamics of time and change itself. The question, as I see it, is what do we change in ourselves to make capitalism work. What makes capitalism into a non-toxic system that does not destroy our planet and lead us to perpetual cycles of war, and misery and self-hatred? Now if you want to talk about that list... that's another conversation.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    But we can change the way capitalism works (see the EPA or FLSA) much more easily than we can change human nature.
    - nonrandomstring 3y ago
      I don't think we can ever change human nature (if such a thing exists), no? That's not the same as changing culture. That by definition must change. You're talking about changing rules (EPA) Are you familiar with the work of Meadows? She gives names to each of these levels and sets up a relation between them. Here's a couple of digs into that if you're interested [0,1] [0] https://cybershow.uk/episodes.php?id=19 https://cybershow.uk/episodes.php?id=19 [1] https://cybershow.uk/episodes.php?id=21 https://cybershow.uk/episodes.php?id=21

ttt11199907 3y ago

I'm not sure many workers building cathedrals considered it a labor of love. Particularly those cathedrals that took many generations to build. > Half of all the work done in the world is childcare and caring for the old. This is a really profound statement, thanks for making me think slightly differently!

penjelly 3y ago
> I'm not sure many workers building cathedrals considered it a labor of love. Particularly those cathedrals that took many generations to build youre kidding right? of course some of them were proud of their contribution.
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  Guess we could think of the Giza Pyramids as a counter-example. Plenty of religious monuments got built on the bones of slaves. But I wonder, factoring out the physical toil, whether future generations might look at giant technological monoliths, maybe The Internet of 2100 and say; "Those techies were unhappy slaves. they laboured in basements and cubicles. They wrote code just to eat! It was obscenely inhuman." Or maybe historians might pore through HN archives and say; "Those who believed in the Great Singularity", devoted their lives out of religious fervour. Many of them wrote code without being paid, just because they had a vision. " Or maybe there will be no trace of us. Anyway, history can tell us facts about what happened, but maybe isn't so good at telling us what went on the minds and dreams of people past. edit: s/Interest/Internet/g
  - penjelly 3y ago
    > Guess we could think of the Giza Pyramids as a counter-example. Plenty of religious monuments got built on the bones of slaves. im not arguing it they died during construction. My point is that a lot of them were undoubtedly proud of the work they produced, not even all the workers on the pyramids were slaves so thats pretty telling imo. Also i am one of those "techies" and i have been involved in projects i didnt initially have passion for, and in all cases i ended up coming around because it was something i worked on daily. Thats what im saying happened with the workers in churches/pyramids, surely some of them.
    - ttt11199907 3y ago
      Is this saying that slavery is justified as long as the goal is something "monumental"? As long as some slaves are "proud" of the work they're being _forced_ to do _on penalty of death_ then we can at least rest assured that their pride in humanity was boosted at the amazing spectacle of a giant pile of rocks built on behalf of an oppressor. Oof.

t0bia_s 3y ago

What would be a fix for capitalism that cripples our attitude to work?

nonrandomstring 3y ago
> What would be a fix for capitalism that cripples our attitude to work? Us. Our culture. FWIW I'll try to explain a little more. I mean, that's a great question but I think it's the wrong question, if you don't mind me saying that. Nobody can see outside the logic of their own epoch. Capitalism can't be "fixed", because it's just what it is. If we "fixed" it, it wouldn't be capitalism any more, it would be something else. In fact it's been many different things over the past centuries as it transforms, much as people like Smith and Marx predicted. Most people at this point say "Okay, smarty.. so what will you replace it with?". And again, wrong question. There is no list of "systems" that could simply be plugged in as replacements. That kind of nonsense leads to great leaps into famine and 20 million starving. Politics is not software like that. At best it's a set of potential slow paths that all start at where we are now. It is not even a set of destinations, because every end point we pursue changes with the dynamics of time and change itself. The question, as I see it, is what do we change in ourselves to make capitalism work. What makes capitalism into a non-toxic system that does not destroy our planet and lead us to perpetual cycles of war, and misery and self-hatred? Now if you want to talk about that list... that's another conversation.
- thfuran 3y ago
  But we can change the way capitalism works (see the EPA or FLSA) much more easily than we can change human nature.
  - nonrandomstring 3y ago
    I don't think we can ever change human nature (if such a thing exists), no? That's not the same as changing culture. That by definition must change. You're talking about changing rules (EPA) Are you familiar with the work of Meadows? She gives names to each of these levels and sets up a relation between them. Here's a couple of digs into that if you're interested [0,1] [0] https://cybershow.uk/episodes.php?id=19 https://cybershow.uk/episodes.php?id=19 [1] https://cybershow.uk/episodes.php?id=21 https://cybershow.uk/episodes.php?id=21