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As this is from 2016 it doesn't include this new fun revelation: > On 11 February 2020, The Washington Post, ZDF and SRF revealed that Crypto AG was secretly o

As this is from 2016 it doesn't include this new fun revelation: > On 11 February 2020, The Washington Post, ZDF and SRF revealed that Crypto AG was secretly owned by the CIA in a highly classified partnership with West German intelligence, and the spy agencies could easily break the codes used to send encrypted messages. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG

hedora 3y ago
More details here: https://web.archive.org/web/20200212014117/https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/national-security/cia-crypto-encryption-machines-espionage/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200212014117/https://www.washi...
pgeorgi 3y ago
The CIA/BND connection wasn't known, but the collusion with certain agencies was known to different degrees for decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crypto_AG&oldid=751958423 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crypto_AG&oldid=7...
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  Considering that I remember reading the CIA’s own historical document on this operation, I would guess its usefulness had run its course. If I’m not mistaken, it was the CIA who released the document to journalists; it seemed like bragging.
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  To add another dimension to this, personally i think that the Crypto AG relationship is what is referred to as "HISTORY" in this leaked NSA ECI codenames list. https://robert.sesek.com/2014/10/nsa_s_eci_compartments.html https://robert.sesek.com/2014/10/nsa_s_eci_compartments.html > HISTORY HST NCSC (TS//SI//NF) Protects NSA and certain commercial cryptologic equipment manufacturer relationships.
treflop 3y ago
The guy who founded Crypto AG was really good friends with a guy who became a top dog at the NSA.
p-e-w 3y ago
> The company had about 230 employees, had offices in Abidjan, Abu Dhabi, Buenos Aires, Kuala Lumpur, Muscat, Selsdon and Steinhausen, and did business throughout the world. That's a... really strange list of office locations, especially considering the relatively small number of employees. > The owners of Crypto AG were unknown, supposedly even to the managers of the firm, and they held their ownership through bearer shares. How does this work in practice? If management doesn't know who owns the company, how can the owners exercise influence on company business?
- quasse 3y ago
  Via lawyer / legal representative if I had to hazard a guess.
  - p-e-w 3y ago
    How does that representative prove that they really represent the owners, if the owners aren't known to management? How can they authorize someone without revealing identifying information?
    - eviks 3y ago
      Where would this need to really prove anything arise from? The intermediaries just hire and pay the managers, that's enough
    - ahazred8ta 3y ago
      Bearer Shares authorize the holder to show up at a shareholders meeting and vote to select certain representatives as board members. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearer_instrument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearer_instrument
- anticensor 3y ago
  Codify all the management policy in the main charter, leaving nothing else to the board to decide?
- ahazred8ta 3y ago
1337biz 3y ago
Would be interesting what similar companies are (in parts) most likely agency fronts. My guess would be quite a few in the soft privacy selling business, such as VPN or email providers.
- Goodroo 3y ago
  Proton mail is a CIA front email provider
  - ykonstant 3y ago
    Hmm... should I choose a provider with a history of spying on everyone and destabilization, or Google? ...OK, I'll go with the CIA.
  - AB1908 3y ago
    It is impossible to tell if this is satire or not.
  - hairyplanner 3y ago
    I actually wish this was true. I want an email service that would last forever and is secure enough from my threats, namely security breaches of the email host and account takeover from non state actors. Gmail is close enough, but I want an alternative. An email service run by the nsa or the cia would be great. (No sarcasm is intended)
  - OneLeggedCat 3y ago
    Proton Mail's extremely bureaucratic operational deafness, and their glacial pace of product features and open-sourcing, would certainly lend support to that idea.
  - protonmail 3y ago
    That is a false statement: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/14demhj/debunking_proton_and_ciansa_fake_news/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/14demhj/debunki.... To address the broader topic of this thread, there is no comparison between Crypto AG and us. Our encryption occurs client-side, our cryptographic code is open source ( https://proton.me/community/open-source https://proton.me/community/open-source ), and our tech can and has been independently verified. More about this here: https://proton.me/blog/is-protonmail-trustworthy https://proton.me/blog/is-protonmail-trustworthy.
EthanHeilman 3y ago
I wrote blog entry on this subject with a very similar name [0] which covers the CryptoAG story in more detail. It doesn't have the 2020 news. [0]: A Brief History of NSA Backdoors (2013), https://www.ethanheilman.com/x/12/index.html https://www.ethanheilman.com/x/12/index.html
- samstave 3y ago
  This is an epically cool blog post! - submit it to HN on its own merits. This was of particular interest to me: >>>"...1986 Reagan tipped off the Libyans that the US could decrypt their communications by talking about information he could only get through Libya decrypts on TV15. In 1991 the Iranians learned that the NSA could break their diplomatic communications when transcripts of Iranian diplomatic communications ended up in a French court case..." Because, in 1986 - thats effectively when a lot of the phreaking and social engineering was at a peak - Cyberpunk was moving from imagination --> zeitgeist --> reality. Social engineering and line-printer litter recovery were yielding the backdoors into the Telecom Switching system. BBS's were raging [0]. So when you get a gaph-guffaw look into infosec in a slipup like these ones, it reinforces in mind that the 80s were some really wild times all around as technology tsunami'd from people's minds business and reality. [0] BBS Docu - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460402/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460402/ [1] phreaking - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phreaking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phreaking [2] history of phreaking - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PmkUPBhL4U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PmkUPBhL4U
  - EthanHeilman 3y ago
    Thanks, just submitted
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > I wrote blog entry on this subject with a very similar name [0] which covers the CryptoAG story in more detail. It doesn't have the 2020 news. [0]: A Brief History of NSA Backdoors (2013), https://www.ethanheilman.com/x/12/index.html https://www.ethanheilman.com/x/12/index.html Wow this is super interesting I noticed this paragraph in the text. > 2013, Enabling for Encryption Chips: In the NSA's budget request documents released by Edward Snowden, one of the goals of the NSA's SIGINT project is to fully backdoor or "enable" certain encryption chips by the end of 201311. It is not publicly known to which encryption chips they are referring. From what I know Cavium is one of these "SIGINT enabled" chip manufactures. > https://www.electrospaces.net/2023/09/some-new-snippets-from-snowden-documents.html https://www.electrospaces.net/2023/09/some-new-snippets-from... >> "While working on documents in the Snowden archive the thesis author learned that an American fabless semiconductor CPU vendor named Cavium is listed as a successful SIGINT "enabled" CPU vendor. By chance this was the same CPU present in the thesis author's Internet router (UniFi USG3). The entire Snowden archive should be open for academic researchers to better understand more of the history of such behavior." (page 71, note 21) > https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366552520/New-revelations-from-the-Snowden-archive-surface https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366552520/New-revelation... Unfortunately the relevant text for the second is pretty long so I dont wanna quote it.

hedora 3y ago

More details here: https://web.archive.org/web/20200212014117/https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/national-security/cia-crypto-encryption-machines-espionage/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200212014117/https://www.washi...

pgeorgi 3y ago

The CIA/BND connection wasn't known, but the collusion with certain agencies was known to different degrees for decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crypto_AG&oldid=751958423 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crypto_AG&oldid=7...

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
Considering that I remember reading the CIA’s own historical document on this operation, I would guess its usefulness had run its course. If I’m not mistaken, it was the CIA who released the document to journalists; it seemed like bragging.
_kbh_ 3y ago
To add another dimension to this, personally i think that the Crypto AG relationship is what is referred to as "HISTORY" in this leaked NSA ECI codenames list. https://robert.sesek.com/2014/10/nsa_s_eci_compartments.html https://robert.sesek.com/2014/10/nsa_s_eci_compartments.html > HISTORY HST NCSC (TS//SI//NF) Protects NSA and certain commercial cryptologic equipment manufacturer relationships.

treflop 3y ago

The guy who founded Crypto AG was really good friends with a guy who became a top dog at the NSA.

p-e-w 3y ago

> The company had about 230 employees, had offices in Abidjan, Abu Dhabi, Buenos Aires, Kuala Lumpur, Muscat, Selsdon and Steinhausen, and did business throughout the world. That's a... really strange list of office locations, especially considering the relatively small number of employees. > The owners of Crypto AG were unknown, supposedly even to the managers of the firm, and they held their ownership through bearer shares. How does this work in practice? If management doesn't know who owns the company, how can the owners exercise influence on company business?

quasse 3y ago
Via lawyer / legal representative if I had to hazard a guess.
- p-e-w 3y ago
  How does that representative prove that they really represent the owners, if the owners aren't known to management? How can they authorize someone without revealing identifying information?
  - eviks 3y ago
    Where would this need to really prove anything arise from? The intermediaries just hire and pay the managers, that's enough
  - ahazred8ta 3y ago
    Bearer Shares authorize the holder to show up at a shareholders meeting and vote to select certain representatives as board members. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearer_instrument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearer_instrument
anticensor 3y ago
Codify all the management policy in the main charter, leaving nothing else to the board to decide?
ahazred8ta 3y ago

1337biz 3y ago

Would be interesting what similar companies are (in parts) most likely agency fronts. My guess would be quite a few in the soft privacy selling business, such as VPN or email providers.

Goodroo 3y ago
Proton mail is a CIA front email provider
- ykonstant 3y ago
  Hmm... should I choose a provider with a history of spying on everyone and destabilization, or Google? ...OK, I'll go with the CIA.
- AB1908 3y ago
  It is impossible to tell if this is satire or not.
- hairyplanner 3y ago
  I actually wish this was true. I want an email service that would last forever and is secure enough from my threats, namely security breaches of the email host and account takeover from non state actors. Gmail is close enough, but I want an alternative. An email service run by the nsa or the cia would be great. (No sarcasm is intended)
- OneLeggedCat 3y ago
  Proton Mail's extremely bureaucratic operational deafness, and their glacial pace of product features and open-sourcing, would certainly lend support to that idea.
- protonmail 3y ago
  That is a false statement: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/14demhj/debunking_proton_and_ciansa_fake_news/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/14demhj/debunki.... To address the broader topic of this thread, there is no comparison between Crypto AG and us. Our encryption occurs client-side, our cryptographic code is open source ( https://proton.me/community/open-source https://proton.me/community/open-source ), and our tech can and has been independently verified. More about this here: https://proton.me/blog/is-protonmail-trustworthy https://proton.me/blog/is-protonmail-trustworthy.

EthanHeilman 3y ago

I wrote blog entry on this subject with a very similar name [0] which covers the CryptoAG story in more detail. It doesn't have the 2020 news. [0]: A Brief History of NSA Backdoors (2013), https://www.ethanheilman.com/x/12/index.html https://www.ethanheilman.com/x/12/index.html

samstave 3y ago
This is an epically cool blog post! - submit it to HN on its own merits. This was of particular interest to me: >>>"...1986 Reagan tipped off the Libyans that the US could decrypt their communications by talking about information he could only get through Libya decrypts on TV15. In 1991 the Iranians learned that the NSA could break their diplomatic communications when transcripts of Iranian diplomatic communications ended up in a French court case..." Because, in 1986 - thats effectively when a lot of the phreaking and social engineering was at a peak - Cyberpunk was moving from imagination --> zeitgeist --> reality. Social engineering and line-printer litter recovery were yielding the backdoors into the Telecom Switching system. BBS's were raging [0]. So when you get a gaph-guffaw look into infosec in a slipup like these ones, it reinforces in mind that the 80s were some really wild times all around as technology tsunami'd from people's minds business and reality. [0] BBS Docu - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460402/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460402/ [1] phreaking - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phreaking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phreaking [2] history of phreaking - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PmkUPBhL4U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PmkUPBhL4U
- EthanHeilman 3y ago
  Thanks, just submitted
_kbh_ 3y ago
> I wrote blog entry on this subject with a very similar name [0] which covers the CryptoAG story in more detail. It doesn't have the 2020 news. [0]: A Brief History of NSA Backdoors (2013), https://www.ethanheilman.com/x/12/index.html https://www.ethanheilman.com/x/12/index.html Wow this is super interesting I noticed this paragraph in the text. > 2013, Enabling for Encryption Chips: In the NSA's budget request documents released by Edward Snowden, one of the goals of the NSA's SIGINT project is to fully backdoor or "enable" certain encryption chips by the end of 201311. It is not publicly known to which encryption chips they are referring. From what I know Cavium is one of these "SIGINT enabled" chip manufactures. > https://www.electrospaces.net/2023/09/some-new-snippets-from-snowden-documents.html https://www.electrospaces.net/2023/09/some-new-snippets-from... >> "While working on documents in the Snowden archive the thesis author learned that an American fabless semiconductor CPU vendor named Cavium is listed as a successful SIGINT "enabled" CPU vendor. By chance this was the same CPU present in the thesis author's Internet router (UniFi USG3). The entire Snowden archive should be open for academic researchers to better understand more of the history of such behavior." (page 71, note 21) > https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366552520/New-revelations-from-the-Snowden-archive-surface https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366552520/New-revelation... Unfortunately the relevant text for the second is pretty long so I dont wanna quote it.