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I get tired of listening to this kind of thing pretty quickly. There's very little here that's falsifiable or of substance, very little to actually confront in

I get tired of listening to this kind of thing pretty quickly. There's very little here that's falsifiable or of substance, very little to actually confront in an intellectually rigorous way. But I'll add this, it's especially uninteresting to hear comparisons between gamedev and webdev. The goals and constraints are totally different. Of course you're going to see a thousand very similar frameworks and a million similar npm packages, and of course none of them are going to be incredibly optimized or performant in the way a video game would be. That's not the goal. The intent is to ship things quickly and iterate on what you've shipped as necessary, so that you can test the value prop and your assumptions in the real world quickly. It's completely opposed to how video games are engineered, which are delivered in (if not a shrinkwrapped box) individual major releases that might come once a quarter or even year. Video games have to meet strict 60fps performance targets, they often push the boundaries of the platforms they're built on. So what's with all the fake shock? Why do we pretend to be surprised that the output and the process is different when the goals are different? Get real. None of this performative whining from up on some pedestal helps anyone, except those who are so insecure about their engineering ability that they need validation from some imagined authority.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
tialaramex 3y ago
"Video games have to meet strict 60fps performance targets" is certainly... an opinion, and it would be interesting to understand how you came to have that opinion. Just to give us an idea, can you tell us the last say, half a dozen new video games you've played?
- BirdieNZ 3y ago
  laughs in cities skylines 2
- striking 3y ago
  Look, I'm trying to give the guy some leeway for being a massive stick in the mud. I think some people call this "steelmanning"? Fine, it's rare that "60fps" is actually mandated by publishers or console manufacturers (even if there's at least one instance to the contrary[1]), but it's at least a fact that your title is unlikely to pass console certification if it isn't at least somewhat stable[2] and that titles have been retracted for instability in the past[3]. Whether you have to meet 60fps or 30fps or just remain somewhat playable is entirely besides my point, which is that making mistakes in writing code in gamedev can lead to lost sales while being too conservative to make mistakes in writing code in webdev can lead to opportunity cost, and that's where the difference in engineering strategy comes from, and why are we fake surprised that they're different when it's obvious? As an aside: I'm not sure why you're asking me to name six new video games I've played when even my most avid gamer friends barely have time for half that. 1: https://www.polygon.com/2016/3/17/11256142/sony-framerate-60fps-vr-certification https://www.polygon.com/2016/3/17/11256142/sony-framerate-60... 2: "A playable experience varies per title, but generally means no severe drops in frame rate, no freezes, impasses, bugs causing major progression hindrances, or graphical corruptions." https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/gaming/gdk/_content/gc/policies/xr/xr003 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/gaming/gdk/_content/gc/pol... 3: https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/17/22188007/sony-cyberpunk-2077-removed-playstation-store-full-refunds-policy https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/17/22188007/sony-cyberpunk-...
  - tialaramex 3y ago
    Sure, I don't really think Jonathan needs "Steelmanning" at this point, but it's not a bad exercise. For (1) that's an engineer (not the decision maker) saying that it's a requirement and then almost immediately back-pedalling, and it's nor for Sony's mainline console but specifically for their niche VR product. I do not get the sense from this that if I was an AAA publisher Sony would, in fact, refuse permission because the heavily pre-sold VR title sometimes missed 60fps. Their engineers would be angry, understandably, but the engineers don't make business decisions. I've only played one game on Sony's VR system for any significant time and it was Keep Talking And Nobody Explodes (which is excellent, if you can stand VR at all I strongly urge you to try KTANE with a few friends, only one VR setup is needed). I didn't notice any frame rate drop in KTANE, but then, that's not very surprising given the uh, intentionally sparse environment you play in. "Somewhat stable" is a much easier bar to meet, but realistically what matters is just business. Cyberpunk made sufficiently many actual customers very angry and they demanded refunds. If your title is less hotly anticipated, do not expect the same pushback. As to why I asked for six, it's because just one or two isn't very representative of your experience. Maybe I should have asked for three or four. I played a bunch of Mario Wonder this week, that's nice but while it's a very fancy 2D platformer it is just a 2D platformer.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

tialaramex 3y ago

"Video games have to meet strict 60fps performance targets" is certainly... an opinion, and it would be interesting to understand how you came to have that opinion. Just to give us an idea, can you tell us the last say, half a dozen new video games you've played?

BirdieNZ 3y ago
laughs in cities skylines 2
striking 3y ago
Look, I'm trying to give the guy some leeway for being a massive stick in the mud. I think some people call this "steelmanning"? Fine, it's rare that "60fps" is actually mandated by publishers or console manufacturers (even if there's at least one instance to the contrary[1]), but it's at least a fact that your title is unlikely to pass console certification if it isn't at least somewhat stable[2] and that titles have been retracted for instability in the past[3]. Whether you have to meet 60fps or 30fps or just remain somewhat playable is entirely besides my point, which is that making mistakes in writing code in gamedev can lead to lost sales while being too conservative to make mistakes in writing code in webdev can lead to opportunity cost, and that's where the difference in engineering strategy comes from, and why are we fake surprised that they're different when it's obvious? As an aside: I'm not sure why you're asking me to name six new video games I've played when even my most avid gamer friends barely have time for half that. 1: https://www.polygon.com/2016/3/17/11256142/sony-framerate-60fps-vr-certification https://www.polygon.com/2016/3/17/11256142/sony-framerate-60... 2: "A playable experience varies per title, but generally means no severe drops in frame rate, no freezes, impasses, bugs causing major progression hindrances, or graphical corruptions." https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/gaming/gdk/_content/gc/policies/xr/xr003 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/gaming/gdk/_content/gc/pol... 3: https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/17/22188007/sony-cyberpunk-2077-removed-playstation-store-full-refunds-policy https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/17/22188007/sony-cyberpunk-...
- tialaramex 3y ago
  Sure, I don't really think Jonathan needs "Steelmanning" at this point, but it's not a bad exercise. For (1) that's an engineer (not the decision maker) saying that it's a requirement and then almost immediately back-pedalling, and it's nor for Sony's mainline console but specifically for their niche VR product. I do not get the sense from this that if I was an AAA publisher Sony would, in fact, refuse permission because the heavily pre-sold VR title sometimes missed 60fps. Their engineers would be angry, understandably, but the engineers don't make business decisions. I've only played one game on Sony's VR system for any significant time and it was Keep Talking And Nobody Explodes (which is excellent, if you can stand VR at all I strongly urge you to try KTANE with a few friends, only one VR setup is needed). I didn't notice any frame rate drop in KTANE, but then, that's not very surprising given the uh, intentionally sparse environment you play in. "Somewhat stable" is a much easier bar to meet, but realistically what matters is just business. Cyberpunk made sufficiently many actual customers very angry and they demanded refunds. If your title is less hotly anticipated, do not expect the same pushback. As to why I asked for six, it's because just one or two isn't very representative of your experience. Maybe I should have asked for three or four. I played a bunch of Mario Wonder this week, that's nice but while it's a very fancy 2D platformer it is just a 2D platformer.