5 ms·

They are boring though. If I have to take a programming test, I'd rather take that time build a real feature onto your product, even if for free. If you like th

They are boring though. If I have to take a programming test, I'd rather take that time build a real feature onto your product, even if for free. If you like the results, at least I've created real value for my time, not just played a silly game. There's a risk that you won't like the results and it will be thrown away, but that's a reasonable gamble.

msg 15y ago
I think some of the ITA programming puzzles (for instance) are fun on their own merits. Not to get too meta, but what if the company essentially buys your argument? "Yes, this is a non-real world problem for entertainment purposes only..." But they want to find programmers who find such problems entertaining.
- kamaal 15y ago
  Filtering only goes so far. If you rely on these tactics instead of asking the actual questions. You will very soon end up hiring people who know nothing about the real world, but would have memorized tons of interview trivia. The problem with puzzles is just that. You ask questions and hire candidates based on issues that have nothing related to the job. The end result is you up hiring the wrong people and then say you can't find good programmers. You can't find good programmers because you are not asking questions meant to hire good programmers. You wanted puzzle experts and that is what you got.
  - msg 15y ago
    Maybe we are talking past each other. This is the page I was thinking of: http://itasoftware.com/careers/work-at-ita/hiring-puzzles.html http://itasoftware.com/careers/work-at-ita/hiring-puzzles.ht... These aren't classic Microsoft "puzzle questions". They are programming challenges that say a lot about your approach to programs and problems. In particular, all of them ask you to make tradeoffs between correctness and performance. They are cool enough to attract engineers, hard enough to discourage the idly curious, and unique enough that no published solution exists. That's why I said that someone who does this kind of puzzle for the sheer enjoyment of it might be exactly what a high-level software shop is looking for. Would I want a "puzzle expert" who could solve the problems on ITA's page? Hell yes.
Evernoob 15y ago
No way. I'm not going to do free work for your company to make money off in the hopes that you'll give me a job later.
- randomdata 15y ago
  What if you did the work for free, but the company would have to pay you for your work if they liked the results, even if they ultimately did not hire you? Wouldn't that still be better than working on some contrived game that has no real-world relevance for free?
  - infinite8s 15y ago
    Then you aren't really working for free. More like on contract.
    - randomdata 15y ago
      But that would only be true if they decide to use the results. Otherwise, it's just another contrived quiz with no real-world merit. The worst case is remains the same as the status quo, but the better case is that you'll be paid for your time in the interview. It still seems like a positive step. No quizzes at all seems like an even better way, but I did qualify the point with the assumption that the quiz would happen regardless.
      - deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
jroll 15y ago
This is how we hire, and I think it's great. Both sides get to see if it's a good fit, we see how you work and if you have a product sense. You get to see if you like our product and company culture. Win-win.

msg 15y ago

I think some of the ITA programming puzzles (for instance) are fun on their own merits. Not to get too meta, but what if the company essentially buys your argument? "Yes, this is a non-real world problem for entertainment purposes only..." But they want to find programmers who find such problems entertaining.

kamaal 15y ago
Filtering only goes so far. If you rely on these tactics instead of asking the actual questions. You will very soon end up hiring people who know nothing about the real world, but would have memorized tons of interview trivia. The problem with puzzles is just that. You ask questions and hire candidates based on issues that have nothing related to the job. The end result is you up hiring the wrong people and then say you can't find good programmers. You can't find good programmers because you are not asking questions meant to hire good programmers. You wanted puzzle experts and that is what you got.
- msg 15y ago
  Maybe we are talking past each other. This is the page I was thinking of: http://itasoftware.com/careers/work-at-ita/hiring-puzzles.html http://itasoftware.com/careers/work-at-ita/hiring-puzzles.ht... These aren't classic Microsoft "puzzle questions". They are programming challenges that say a lot about your approach to programs and problems. In particular, all of them ask you to make tradeoffs between correctness and performance. They are cool enough to attract engineers, hard enough to discourage the idly curious, and unique enough that no published solution exists. That's why I said that someone who does this kind of puzzle for the sheer enjoyment of it might be exactly what a high-level software shop is looking for. Would I want a "puzzle expert" who could solve the problems on ITA's page? Hell yes.

Evernoob 15y ago

No way. I'm not going to do free work for your company to make money off in the hopes that you'll give me a job later.

randomdata 15y ago
What if you did the work for free, but the company would have to pay you for your work if they liked the results, even if they ultimately did not hire you? Wouldn't that still be better than working on some contrived game that has no real-world relevance for free?
- infinite8s 15y ago
  Then you aren't really working for free. More like on contract.
  - randomdata 15y ago
    But that would only be true if they decide to use the results. Otherwise, it's just another contrived quiz with no real-world merit. The worst case is remains the same as the status quo, but the better case is that you'll be paid for your time in the interview. It still seems like a positive step. No quizzes at all seems like an even better way, but I did qualify the point with the assumption that the quiz would happen regardless.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]

jroll 15y ago

This is how we hire, and I think it's great. Both sides get to see if it's a good fit, we see how you work and if you have a product sense. You get to see if you like our product and company culture. Win-win.