5 ms·

It also (literally) opens up your home for many ideas and possibilities for attackers. Not just for the "haxxor" types, but the far more sneaky, sweet-talking o

It also (literally) opens up your home for many ideas and possibilities for attackers. Not just for the "haxxor" types, but the far more sneaky, sweet-talking ones. It should not trigger just your imagination, but your paranoia.

mewpmewp2 3y ago
Yes of course, but for example you already have your phone, laptops and computers with many things built in them. If you are ok with those, then it should be possible to build those smart devices with similar security and potential for attack.
- arter4 3y ago
  Yes but while you can install Linux on your own, or even build your own computer if you're interested, you don't get to build a fridge or its operating system, and you most likely don't even have a valid way to see how it's configured (you may be able to hack it somehow, but it would probably void any warranty). So... do you upgrade your fridge OS? Maybe, maybe not. What happens if you do and an upgrade fails? does it talk to the Internet? If it has to (by design), then all bets are off. You could try to mirror traffic and take a packet capture, but a fridge OS could easily use HTTPS over a "smart.myfridge.com" domain and you wouldn't know what's going on. How does it even authenticate to whatever remote server they have? If it uses tokens or client certificates, what happens when they expire? I'm a sysadmin, I know things fail. Even laptops and phones. But, while I can see valid use cases for laptops and phones, I still fail to see the actual appeal of most "smart home" appliances, outside of security systems. And I don't want to have nightmares about my fridge certificate expiration or not being able to turn your light on because my fiber connection went down.
  - mewpmewp2 3y ago
    > Yes but while you can install Linux on your own, or even build your own computer if you're interested, you don't get to build a fridge or its operating system, and you most likely don't even have a valid way to see how it's configured (you may be able to hack it somehow, but it would probably void any warranty). You could install open sourced things to that fridge. E.g. the fridge could either come with sensors immediately available or just have convenient mounts to place your own cameras. Maybe the fridge could have a simple linux box, raspberry PI or whatever set up. There could be a market where you can flexibly pick how immediately available solution you want or if you want to put in everything yourself and control, depending on how concerned you are about privacy and how technical you are. If you want to have full control, you can just do that. > do you upgrade your fridge OS? Maybe, maybe not. What happens if you do and an upgrade fails? Most smart home devices in my experience update through a mobile app connected to your WiFi. > What happens if you do and an upgrade fails Fridge itself would still work, just the picture taking and ai guidance wouldn't. > How does it even authenticate to whatever remote server they have? If it uses tokens or client certificates, what happens when they expire? Through mobile app can update, reset everything. > And I don't want to have nightmares about my fridge certificate expiration or not being able to turn your light on because my fiber connection went down. These basic things like light and other base features you make sure can work even if smart software fails.
    - arter4 3y ago
      >These basic things like light and other base features you make sure can work even if smart software fails. Even ignoring the potential privacy concerns, you're assuming too much in terms of reliability. When an AWS region went down a couple of years ago, a lot of smart fridges and lights didn't work properly (https://financialpost.com/technology/personal-tech/pitfalls-of-a-smart-home-amazon-outage-left-people-without-working-fridges-lights-and-even-access-to-homes https://financialpost.com/technology/personal-tech/pitfalls-...).
      - mewpmewp2 3y ago
        That sounds like a problem with the developers of smart fridges. You just have to be able to use it without any connectivity as a baseline.
- rglullis 3y ago
  > If you are ok with those I'm not. My phone, laptop and computers all run software that I get to install down to the OS (Linux, /e/OS), and I would never install something like the ChatGPT app on my phone. > it should be possible to build those smart devices with similar security It should be possible, but they are not. Don't forget: the "S" in IoT stands for "Security". In any case, this is not even what I am talking about. What I am talking about is the "attack" being done by corporations into your house. It pains me to hear that people are willing to give so much of their privacy in the name of "convenience" and don't even show any slight concern over the thought of having so much data going to Google, Amazon, Apple, Microsoft and (now) OpenAI. If you went to someone's home and they told you "by the way, my home is full of microphones and video cameras which are always on and used to power my digital assistant", how would you feel?
  - mewpmewp2 3y ago
    > by the way, my home is full of microphones and video cameras which are always on and used to power my digital assistant Everyone are already walking around with smart phones that are perfectly able to do all of that. > I'm not. My phone, laptop and computers all run software that I get to install down to the OS (Linux, /e/OS), and I would never install something like the ChatGPT app on my phone. Fine if you do that. > What I am talking about is the "attack" being done by corporations into your house. It pains me to hear that people are willing to give so much of their privacy in the name of "convenience" and don't even show any slight concern over the thought of having so much data going to Google, Amazon, Apple, Microsoft and (now) OpenAI. I personally am not concerned about this, although I understand how people can be. I don't want to go my whole life avoiding things, concerned about what is being done with my data, and then I die. I have long dated option calls really out of money in all those companies (except OpenAI of course), in case one of them gets a massive data advantage and happens to discover singularity from this, so I would benefit from it anyway. Before that happens, they just use it to optimise ads for you, and I prefer optimised ads over random ads. Otherwise I'll do my best to block them, but if they get through, I prefer something I might actually be interested in and that might help me. I prefer to see inventions and technology. At certain point humans will be outlived by technology anyway, and that's bound to happen. New inventions and tech are what is exciting and why I like living, seeing those things coming together.
- thfuran 3y ago
  It is possible, but it mostly doesn't happen. And even when it does, "similar security and potential for attack" means needing regular security updates, which they tend not to receive.

mewpmewp2 3y ago

Yes of course, but for example you already have your phone, laptops and computers with many things built in them. If you are ok with those, then it should be possible to build those smart devices with similar security and potential for attack.

arter4 3y ago
Yes but while you can install Linux on your own, or even build your own computer if you're interested, you don't get to build a fridge or its operating system, and you most likely don't even have a valid way to see how it's configured (you may be able to hack it somehow, but it would probably void any warranty). So... do you upgrade your fridge OS? Maybe, maybe not. What happens if you do and an upgrade fails? does it talk to the Internet? If it has to (by design), then all bets are off. You could try to mirror traffic and take a packet capture, but a fridge OS could easily use HTTPS over a "smart.myfridge.com" domain and you wouldn't know what's going on. How does it even authenticate to whatever remote server they have? If it uses tokens or client certificates, what happens when they expire? I'm a sysadmin, I know things fail. Even laptops and phones. But, while I can see valid use cases for laptops and phones, I still fail to see the actual appeal of most "smart home" appliances, outside of security systems. And I don't want to have nightmares about my fridge certificate expiration or not being able to turn your light on because my fiber connection went down.
- mewpmewp2 3y ago
  > Yes but while you can install Linux on your own, or even build your own computer if you're interested, you don't get to build a fridge or its operating system, and you most likely don't even have a valid way to see how it's configured (you may be able to hack it somehow, but it would probably void any warranty). You could install open sourced things to that fridge. E.g. the fridge could either come with sensors immediately available or just have convenient mounts to place your own cameras. Maybe the fridge could have a simple linux box, raspberry PI or whatever set up. There could be a market where you can flexibly pick how immediately available solution you want or if you want to put in everything yourself and control, depending on how concerned you are about privacy and how technical you are. If you want to have full control, you can just do that. > do you upgrade your fridge OS? Maybe, maybe not. What happens if you do and an upgrade fails? Most smart home devices in my experience update through a mobile app connected to your WiFi. > What happens if you do and an upgrade fails Fridge itself would still work, just the picture taking and ai guidance wouldn't. > How does it even authenticate to whatever remote server they have? If it uses tokens or client certificates, what happens when they expire? Through mobile app can update, reset everything. > And I don't want to have nightmares about my fridge certificate expiration or not being able to turn your light on because my fiber connection went down. These basic things like light and other base features you make sure can work even if smart software fails.
  - arter4 3y ago
    >These basic things like light and other base features you make sure can work even if smart software fails. Even ignoring the potential privacy concerns, you're assuming too much in terms of reliability. When an AWS region went down a couple of years ago, a lot of smart fridges and lights didn't work properly (https://financialpost.com/technology/personal-tech/pitfalls-of-a-smart-home-amazon-outage-left-people-without-working-fridges-lights-and-even-access-to-homes https://financialpost.com/technology/personal-tech/pitfalls-...).
    - mewpmewp2 3y ago
      That sounds like a problem with the developers of smart fridges. You just have to be able to use it without any connectivity as a baseline.
rglullis 3y ago
> If you are ok with those I'm not. My phone, laptop and computers all run software that I get to install down to the OS (Linux, /e/OS), and I would never install something like the ChatGPT app on my phone. > it should be possible to build those smart devices with similar security It should be possible, but they are not. Don't forget: the "S" in IoT stands for "Security". In any case, this is not even what I am talking about. What I am talking about is the "attack" being done by corporations into your house. It pains me to hear that people are willing to give so much of their privacy in the name of "convenience" and don't even show any slight concern over the thought of having so much data going to Google, Amazon, Apple, Microsoft and (now) OpenAI. If you went to someone's home and they told you "by the way, my home is full of microphones and video cameras which are always on and used to power my digital assistant", how would you feel?
- mewpmewp2 3y ago
  > by the way, my home is full of microphones and video cameras which are always on and used to power my digital assistant Everyone are already walking around with smart phones that are perfectly able to do all of that. > I'm not. My phone, laptop and computers all run software that I get to install down to the OS (Linux, /e/OS), and I would never install something like the ChatGPT app on my phone. Fine if you do that. > What I am talking about is the "attack" being done by corporations into your house. It pains me to hear that people are willing to give so much of their privacy in the name of "convenience" and don't even show any slight concern over the thought of having so much data going to Google, Amazon, Apple, Microsoft and (now) OpenAI. I personally am not concerned about this, although I understand how people can be. I don't want to go my whole life avoiding things, concerned about what is being done with my data, and then I die. I have long dated option calls really out of money in all those companies (except OpenAI of course), in case one of them gets a massive data advantage and happens to discover singularity from this, so I would benefit from it anyway. Before that happens, they just use it to optimise ads for you, and I prefer optimised ads over random ads. Otherwise I'll do my best to block them, but if they get through, I prefer something I might actually be interested in and that might help me. I prefer to see inventions and technology. At certain point humans will be outlived by technology anyway, and that's bound to happen. New inventions and tech are what is exciting and why I like living, seeing those things coming together.
thfuran 3y ago
It is possible, but it mostly doesn't happen. And even when it does, "similar security and potential for attack" means needing regular security updates, which they tend not to receive.