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Leaving stuff on when you are away is completely different than how bitcoin mining demand response works. Firstly, at regular electricity prices, bitcoin minin

by yrral 3y ago

Leaving stuff on when you are away is completely different than how bitcoin mining demand response works. Firstly, at regular electricity prices, bitcoin mining is profitable and it is profitable for the utility to run renewables (which in turn means it is/was profitable to build renewables). When there is substantial demand or low supply, then it is profitable for the utility to pay the bitcoin miners to turn off, because the alternative to import power is more expensive. This in turn makes your electricity cheaper. In addition, the additional steady state demand for power allows for more renewables to be built, which further increases the supply during low supply periods. Your AC does not automatically turn off when this happens. I am one of those enthusiasts making "strange logic" claims. I've been making this claim well before others but I feel that I keep getting downvoted on them off of people's emotion rather than rational logic. The transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy sources has altered the environmental impact of additional electricity consumption. Where once any increase in consumption was considered harmful due to its reliance on fossil fuels, the rise of renewables introduces scenarios where the marginal environmental cost of electricity can be beneficial if the demand is flexible. Bitcoin mining has the potential to act as a load balancer for the electricity grid. By increasing its energy consumption during periods when renewable energy production exceeds demand, and reducing consumption during peak demand periods, Bitcoin mining could help stabilize the grid and make renewable energy generation more economically viable. Bitcoin mining's demand for electricity is unique in that it is primarily cost-driven. Renewable energy generation capacity is particularly volatile. Bitcoin mining power usage can be flexible and responsive to the availability and cost of electricity. The ability of Bitcoin mining to consume excess renewable energy when it's available (and potentially at low or negative prices) could improve the financial viability of renewable energy projects by increasing the floor price these new projects can sell electricity at. This can encourage the development of additional renewable energy capacity by providing a reliable demand for their output during otherwise unprofitable periods. Here's some examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25444985 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25444985 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26094279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26094279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26811819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26811819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29367174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29367174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30310572 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30310572

anigbrowl 3y ago
I see your point but disagree with it. It's not load balancing because you're not putting anything back to the grid at times of high demand. Yes, you're incentivizing production of renewable energy (good), but that could be done equally well by investing more in batteries, whether of the chemical or gravitational variety.
woodruffw 3y ago
To understand why people don't find this compelling (and are sick of hearing it), you probably need to first understand that people consider Bitcoin's profitability a false economy. In other words: your scenario is identical to GP's except that someone is paying you to run your AC while you aren't at home, rather than just doing it because you can. The logical question is then to ask why they're paying you to run your AC, and that is the uncompelling part: it's not clear that we should be paying people to burn energy to crack hashes.
- ruined 3y ago
  and this is where it comes to a point: what can you possibly change about the world to deincentivize that, and make it uninteresting? if you want a transition away from carbon, you have to solve that question.
  - p1mrx 3y ago
    > what can you possibly change about the world to deincentivize that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fee_and_dividend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fee_and_dividend This would remove the incentive to mine crypto on any grid that is coincidentally emitting carbon.
    - ephbit 3y ago
      The carbon fee would lower and possibly sometimes completely remove the incentive to mine Bitcoin on a grid that is coincidentally emitting CO2, when the current electricity generation mix has a large share of fossil generation. As most (if not all) uses of electricity, Bitcoin mining is sensitive to the electricity price. Introducing a a carbon tax / carbon dividend, doesn't magically make any particular use of electricity economically unviable all of the time. It just pushes the cost equilibria to different values.

by yrral 3y ago

anigbrowl 3y ago

I see your point but disagree with it. It's not load balancing because you're not putting anything back to the grid at times of high demand. Yes, you're incentivizing production of renewable energy (good), but that could be done equally well by investing more in batteries, whether of the chemical or gravitational variety.

woodruffw 3y ago

To understand why people don't find this compelling (and are sick of hearing it), you probably need to first understand that people consider Bitcoin's profitability a false economy. In other words: your scenario is identical to GP's except that someone is paying you to run your AC while you aren't at home, rather than just doing it because you can. The logical question is then to ask why they're paying you to run your AC, and that is the uncompelling part: it's not clear that we should be paying people to burn energy to crack hashes.

ruined 3y ago
and this is where it comes to a point: what can you possibly change about the world to deincentivize that, and make it uninteresting? if you want a transition away from carbon, you have to solve that question.
- p1mrx 3y ago
  > what can you possibly change about the world to deincentivize that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fee_and_dividend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fee_and_dividend This would remove the incentive to mine crypto on any grid that is coincidentally emitting carbon.
  - ephbit 3y ago
    The carbon fee would lower and possibly sometimes completely remove the incentive to mine Bitcoin on a grid that is coincidentally emitting CO2, when the current electricity generation mix has a large share of fossil generation. As most (if not all) uses of electricity, Bitcoin mining is sensitive to the electricity price. Introducing a a carbon tax / carbon dividend, doesn't magically make any particular use of electricity economically unviable all of the time. It just pushes the cost equilibria to different values.