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The former since that would be the definition of a secular democracy. The same immigration and citizenship laws regardless of religion or ethnicity. There's def

The former since that would be the definition of a secular democracy. The same immigration and citizenship laws regardless of religion or ethnicity. There's definitely need of some reparations as well, so I think right of return would play a role in re-establishing the Palestinian population from where they were displaced.

weatherlite 3y ago
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- smoothjazz 3y ago
  This matches what I've seen from Israelis, but the issue is that the rest of the world does think this is the best way forward. Support in the west is very generational and supporting Zionism will be politically lethal within 20 years. I don't see how Israel could keep an ethno-state intact without support from western allies. There's great pressure on Israel now to stop the war without having achieved any strategic victories. Repeated Oct 7th like events seem inevitable until Israelis face the reality of the situation and secularize. Also for the record, I fully support reparations to indigenous and Black Americans, so yes, my view is consistent.
  - weatherlite 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - smoothjazz 3y ago
      > You're saying you'd be willing to pay reparations for this and that, but those are empty words. If someone asked you to let go of your national identity, home and security you'd probably rethink the whole thing. If you are positive you're a 'settler colonist' you should voluntarily give up your possessions for the dispossessed. You have no real skin in the game. This is pretty rude and making a lot of assumptions. Why do you think I'm not indigenous myself? I'd much rather my taxes go to reparations than to Israel and I think that's the crux of your issue. Even people on the complete opposite end of the political spectrum from me would rather see their tax dollars go to something else (like say the US border -- again opposite of me) than to Israel.
    - runarberg 3y ago
      > The Palestinians don't even want to live in a liberal democracy and definitely not in a binational liberal democracy with Jews This is a pretty racist and generalizing comment to make. Talking about Palestinians like this is not helping your cause.
      - weatherlite 3y ago
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- runarberg 3y ago
  This analogy doesn’t work for several reasons: 1. The Spanish speaking Mexicans were never expelled from parts of California and Texas. So there is no right of return applicable. 2. The Spanish speaking Mexicans were also on stolen lands which they had acquired within a few generations. So in your analogy, the native American Indians would be akin to Palestine, and the Spanish speaking Mexicans would be Israel. The USA would be a third invasion force taking lands from both Israel and Palestine. 3. Even if we concentrate on native American Indian lands, they still hold equal citizenship and equal rights within Texas, California, or anywhere inside the USA. The thing they are missing is their ownership of the lands which was stolen from them. Palestinians are missing a lot more. But this analogy could hold if it was still 1890. 4. A more applicable analogy would be the Japanese Americans which were expelled from their homes on the West Coast during WW2. However, they were given the right of return within a few years and even reparations in the 1980s.
  - weatherlite 3y ago
    [flagged]
deleted 3y ago
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weatherlite 3y ago

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smoothjazz 3y ago
This matches what I've seen from Israelis, but the issue is that the rest of the world does think this is the best way forward. Support in the west is very generational and supporting Zionism will be politically lethal within 20 years. I don't see how Israel could keep an ethno-state intact without support from western allies. There's great pressure on Israel now to stop the war without having achieved any strategic victories. Repeated Oct 7th like events seem inevitable until Israelis face the reality of the situation and secularize. Also for the record, I fully support reparations to indigenous and Black Americans, so yes, my view is consistent.
- weatherlite 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - smoothjazz 3y ago
    > You're saying you'd be willing to pay reparations for this and that, but those are empty words. If someone asked you to let go of your national identity, home and security you'd probably rethink the whole thing. If you are positive you're a 'settler colonist' you should voluntarily give up your possessions for the dispossessed. You have no real skin in the game. This is pretty rude and making a lot of assumptions. Why do you think I'm not indigenous myself? I'd much rather my taxes go to reparations than to Israel and I think that's the crux of your issue. Even people on the complete opposite end of the political spectrum from me would rather see their tax dollars go to something else (like say the US border -- again opposite of me) than to Israel.
  - runarberg 3y ago
    > The Palestinians don't even want to live in a liberal democracy and definitely not in a binational liberal democracy with Jews This is a pretty racist and generalizing comment to make. Talking about Palestinians like this is not helping your cause.
    - weatherlite 3y ago
      [flagged]
runarberg 3y ago
This analogy doesn’t work for several reasons: 1. The Spanish speaking Mexicans were never expelled from parts of California and Texas. So there is no right of return applicable. 2. The Spanish speaking Mexicans were also on stolen lands which they had acquired within a few generations. So in your analogy, the native American Indians would be akin to Palestine, and the Spanish speaking Mexicans would be Israel. The USA would be a third invasion force taking lands from both Israel and Palestine. 3. Even if we concentrate on native American Indian lands, they still hold equal citizenship and equal rights within Texas, California, or anywhere inside the USA. The thing they are missing is their ownership of the lands which was stolen from them. Palestinians are missing a lot more. But this analogy could hold if it was still 1890. 4. A more applicable analogy would be the Japanese Americans which were expelled from their homes on the West Coast during WW2. However, they were given the right of return within a few years and even reparations in the 1980s.
- weatherlite 3y ago
  [flagged]

deleted 3y ago

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