8 ms·

Tesla's week gets worse: Fines, safety investigation, and recall

24 points by DaveFlater 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
emptysongglass 3y ago
I dislike how news sources are abusing the word recall. Recalling every Tesla on the road means an OTA patch. Most casual readers will assume recall to mean the car needs to be brought in for service. Whatever your thoughts on Tesla, this is a scummy tactic.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  The NHTSA calls it a recall. PDF warning: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V838-8276.PDF https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V838-8276.PDF
  - emptysongglass 3y ago
    But that's now how most people view a recall. That's the point. It's clearly a move meant to drive clicks. A news source could write, a "software patch to fix blabla was sent out" but they instead opt for the more alarming language that has its roots in physical units of x item returning to a service center for service.
    - wnevets 3y ago
      Using the proper definitions of the words is now considered a move meant to drive clicks. Very interesting take.
      - emptysongglass 3y ago
        The word, "recall", has a myriad of definitions. In this particular use of the word, it has a historical basis in physical vehicle recalls to the service center. That an agency has since decided it also applies to OTA patches does not change this fact or how it is perceived by people at large.
        wnevets 3y ago
        It sounds like you should be upset at the agency and not the fact based reporting.
        simion314 3y ago
        Are you OK with Tesla calling stuff auto pilot or Full Self Driving even if it is not a real auto pilot not a real full self driving ? For consistency with your argument I suspect we agree it should be called lane assist and SSD Sometime Self Driving.
      - judge2020 3y ago
        More that the authors are conveniently getting tons more clicks by making no attempt to denote the low-impact of the recall when it's obvious that 95-99% of the population will only see the headline or will associate it with "like when Toyota's accelerator pedals were getting stuck".
        FireBeyond 3y ago
        I should probably complain loudly too, then, considering "Audi vehicles recalled" was an article title when mine had a recall for "passenger side camera may get foggy in cold weather". Or when Lincoln sent me two pieces of paper "to be inserted into your owner's manual" as another safety recall.
    - whoknowsidont 3y ago
      They are using the very factual and context appropriate term that the agency responsible for issuing these orders is using. The reason for this is that the OTA update is a _convenience_. If the OTA update fails or causes other issues Tesla is still required to bring the cars in and fix them as required and cannot attempt to treat related, associated, or casual errors and issues differently. You're confusing agencies allowing this to happen as a luxury instead of understanding the teeth behind the policy.
    - moogly 3y ago
      > But that's now how most people view a recall. Heh. Ironic. I remember (recall?) the good old argument used for calling something "Autopilot"...
    - calamari4065 3y ago
      Previous vehicles were recalled to the dealership for software updates. Is this sensationalism? It's "just" a software update after all, no need to scare consumers.
- poundofshrimp 3y ago
  They should have a separate term for this, like “over-the-air recall”. This sort of thing will happen more and more often as in-car computers become more relied upon.
  - judge2020 3y ago
    Even safety recalls can be fixed OTA, at least in Tesla's case since they designed most components to be FW-updatable during MCU software updates. The term needs to be something new.
- pengaru 3y ago
  That's just like, your opinion, man. These are recalls plain and simple. The public perception of that requiring a dealer visit is just obsolete. The combination of OTA updates and the potentially affected software now controlling vehicle operation/behavior/capability/safety etc makes it a recall for all intents and purposes. Just because the news tends to sensationalize doesn't mean everything they say is clickbait. IMHO accurately reporting these recalls is a public service helping get everyone on the same page WRT what OTA updates actually are.
- redserk 3y ago
  Recall is the correct choice of word here, but Ars' coverage of Tesla issues is incredibly disappointing because one of their writers really makes it clear in his articles that he loathes Tesla, at the expense of even pretending to be remotely neutral. Continuing to write headlines on recalls like this does not do anyone favors though. Tesla owners aren't impacted. They'll get an update. Everyone else hears there's a recall for a car they don't own and won't care. A cohort of online users will happily click and comment about their hatred of a car company that, quite frankly, nobody cares to hear about except other people who like commenting on this stuff. All the while, the "recall" term keeps getting thrown out in headlines in a context that isn't life-or-death safety-critical, lessening it's impact on actual life-or-death safety concerns.. It is 2024 and a distinction is desperately needed. The same type of advisory used for a defective steering mechanism that could cause serious injury/death should not be in the same grouping as a patch for a lousy UI decision that will likely be fixed as an OTA update in a couple weeks.
  - Clubber 3y ago
    I stopped reading Ars years ago because the comments section is an echo chamber.
  - tuna74 3y ago
    "Recall is the correct choice of word here, but Ars' coverage of Tesla issues is incredibly disappointing because one of their writers really makes it clear in his articles that he loathes Tesla, at the expense of even pretending to be remotely neutral." Isn't this better?
- root_axis 3y ago
  A recall that can be fixed with an OTA update is still a recall. The issue isn't that you have to bring in your car, it's that the government has determined the vehicle has a safety issue that it's forcing Tesla to fix. An OTA fix is convenient for the driver, but it doesn't change the fact the car had a safety problem that warranted government intervention.
  - peterisza 3y ago
    Tesla wasn't actually being forced. In the past, other automakers like Ford, GM, Porsche and Kia/Hyundai ran into the exact same problem. They just filed an inconsequential non-compliance petition to NHTSA because this issue is so minor and it would have been too expensive to fix --- for them. Source: https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161 https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161
  - unshavedyak 3y ago
    Yup. If it was possible to run it offline, then the recall would sound very traditional. Which is to say it’s unsafe to drive, it has be recalled until it is fixed. How the fix is implemented seems irrelevant.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  Lincoln had a safety recall that consisted of them sending me two pieces of paper with esoteric information about seats. Is that scummy, too?
wnevets 3y ago
Very concerning. Looking into it.
- whoknowsidont 3y ago
  insert poop emojis
peterisza 3y ago
Here's more info on how this solely UI-related recall affects the interface: https://twitter.com/DriveTeslaca/status/1753302155275157637 https://twitter.com/DriveTeslaca/status/1753302155275157637 Incorrect Font Size on Warning Lights/FMVSS 105: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2024/RCAK-24V051-8380.pdf https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2024/RCAK-24V051-8380.pdf
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
[dupe] More discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39231229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39231229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39216622 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39216622
kbos87 3y ago
It feels like regulators are at risk of crossing into the territory of issuing “recalls” against Tesla that they wouldn’t otherwise because 1) it’s actually possible for them to edit minuscule details through OTA updates, and 2) Tesla is against the ropes and they can score points by making it look like they are doing something. As an aside, I find the media fervor around any Tesla recall more ironic because of the fact that my Model Y is likely the safest car I’ve ever driven. It’s a IIHS top pick, is insanely good at detecting dangerous situations related to pedestrians and other vehicles, and there are so many software-based safety enhancements in this car that I’ve never seen in other vehicles.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  > It feels like regulators are at risk of crossing into the territory of issuing “recalls” against Tesla that they wouldn’t otherwise because 1) it’s actually possible for them to edit minuscule details through OTA updates, and 2) Tesla is against the ropes and they can score points by making it look like they are doing something. I got a recall for my Lincoln Navigator that was "put these two pieces of paper between pages 186 and 187 of your manual. It contains additional information about your seats and operation". Sorry, if that is a "recall", so too is a required software update for safety. All this, despite Musk (and many Tesla fans) wanting to feel unreasonably attacked. > It’s a IIHS top pick So were twenty one other cars in the midsize luxury segment alone (Sixteen if you "only" count the Top Safety Pick+). > is insanely good at detecting dangerous situations related to pedestrians and other vehicles, and there are so many software-based safety enhancements in this car that I’ve never seen in other vehicles. Multiple times, multiple things I've heard Tesla owners express surprise at learning the "dinosaurs" also have, just from my cars alone: - Traffic Sign Recognition, including recognizing school zones, and recognizing active school zones. - Adaptive blind spot - so nice. Speed differential low, or you're going faster? Will not activate, or only activate last moment. But if someone is blowing by you in the HOV lane, it will warn of them when they're still several hundred feet back. - Laser headlights. Matrix headlights. Night vision with thermal imaging. - Predictive active suspension - The car actively scans the road ahead with sensors and it will adjust suspension for poorer road conditions. - The car can not just stop, but will actively swerve, if safe, around obstructions to avoid a collision, or even a parked car opening a door into traffic.
leetgirl83 3y ago
Actually all the mainstream news outlets including the biased Ars Technica adamantly REFUSED to mention software update in the headline and in the first paragraph. What could possibly the reason? Not enough space for headline? Instead we get headlines like "Tesla recalls all 2.2 million vehicles in the US amid probe of Autopilot crashes - WSJ"

24 points by DaveFlater 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

I dislike how news sources are abusing the word recall. Recalling every Tesla on the road means an OTA patch. Most casual readers will assume recall to mean the car needs to be brought in for service. Whatever your thoughts on Tesla, this is a scummy tactic.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
The NHTSA calls it a recall. PDF warning: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V838-8276.PDF https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V838-8276.PDF
- emptysongglass 3y ago
  But that's now how most people view a recall. That's the point. It's clearly a move meant to drive clicks. A news source could write, a "software patch to fix blabla was sent out" but they instead opt for the more alarming language that has its roots in physical units of x item returning to a service center for service.
  - wnevets 3y ago
    Using the proper definitions of the words is now considered a move meant to drive clicks. Very interesting take.
    - emptysongglass 3y ago
      The word, "recall", has a myriad of definitions. In this particular use of the word, it has a historical basis in physical vehicle recalls to the service center. That an agency has since decided it also applies to OTA patches does not change this fact or how it is perceived by people at large.
      - wnevets 3y ago
        It sounds like you should be upset at the agency and not the fact based reporting.
      - simion314 3y ago
        Are you OK with Tesla calling stuff auto pilot or Full Self Driving even if it is not a real auto pilot not a real full self driving ? For consistency with your argument I suspect we agree it should be called lane assist and SSD Sometime Self Driving.
    - judge2020 3y ago
      More that the authors are conveniently getting tons more clicks by making no attempt to denote the low-impact of the recall when it's obvious that 95-99% of the population will only see the headline or will associate it with "like when Toyota's accelerator pedals were getting stuck".
      - FireBeyond 3y ago
        I should probably complain loudly too, then, considering "Audi vehicles recalled" was an article title when mine had a recall for "passenger side camera may get foggy in cold weather". Or when Lincoln sent me two pieces of paper "to be inserted into your owner's manual" as another safety recall.
  - whoknowsidont 3y ago
    They are using the very factual and context appropriate term that the agency responsible for issuing these orders is using. The reason for this is that the OTA update is a _convenience_. If the OTA update fails or causes other issues Tesla is still required to bring the cars in and fix them as required and cannot attempt to treat related, associated, or casual errors and issues differently. You're confusing agencies allowing this to happen as a luxury instead of understanding the teeth behind the policy.
  - moogly 3y ago
    > But that's now how most people view a recall. Heh. Ironic. I remember (recall?) the good old argument used for calling something "Autopilot"...
  - calamari4065 3y ago
    Previous vehicles were recalled to the dealership for software updates. Is this sensationalism? It's "just" a software update after all, no need to scare consumers.
poundofshrimp 3y ago
They should have a separate term for this, like “over-the-air recall”. This sort of thing will happen more and more often as in-car computers become more relied upon.
- judge2020 3y ago
  Even safety recalls can be fixed OTA, at least in Tesla's case since they designed most components to be FW-updatable during MCU software updates. The term needs to be something new.
pengaru 3y ago
That's just like, your opinion, man. These are recalls plain and simple. The public perception of that requiring a dealer visit is just obsolete. The combination of OTA updates and the potentially affected software now controlling vehicle operation/behavior/capability/safety etc makes it a recall for all intents and purposes. Just because the news tends to sensationalize doesn't mean everything they say is clickbait. IMHO accurately reporting these recalls is a public service helping get everyone on the same page WRT what OTA updates actually are.
redserk 3y ago
Recall is the correct choice of word here, but Ars' coverage of Tesla issues is incredibly disappointing because one of their writers really makes it clear in his articles that he loathes Tesla, at the expense of even pretending to be remotely neutral. Continuing to write headlines on recalls like this does not do anyone favors though. Tesla owners aren't impacted. They'll get an update. Everyone else hears there's a recall for a car they don't own and won't care. A cohort of online users will happily click and comment about their hatred of a car company that, quite frankly, nobody cares to hear about except other people who like commenting on this stuff. All the while, the "recall" term keeps getting thrown out in headlines in a context that isn't life-or-death safety-critical, lessening it's impact on actual life-or-death safety concerns.. It is 2024 and a distinction is desperately needed. The same type of advisory used for a defective steering mechanism that could cause serious injury/death should not be in the same grouping as a patch for a lousy UI decision that will likely be fixed as an OTA update in a couple weeks.
- Clubber 3y ago
  I stopped reading Ars years ago because the comments section is an echo chamber.
- tuna74 3y ago
  "Recall is the correct choice of word here, but Ars' coverage of Tesla issues is incredibly disappointing because one of their writers really makes it clear in his articles that he loathes Tesla, at the expense of even pretending to be remotely neutral." Isn't this better?
root_axis 3y ago
A recall that can be fixed with an OTA update is still a recall. The issue isn't that you have to bring in your car, it's that the government has determined the vehicle has a safety issue that it's forcing Tesla to fix. An OTA fix is convenient for the driver, but it doesn't change the fact the car had a safety problem that warranted government intervention.
- peterisza 3y ago
  Tesla wasn't actually being forced. In the past, other automakers like Ford, GM, Porsche and Kia/Hyundai ran into the exact same problem. They just filed an inconsequential non-compliance petition to NHTSA because this issue is so minor and it would have been too expensive to fix --- for them. Source: https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161 https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161
- unshavedyak 3y ago
  Yup. If it was possible to run it offline, then the recall would sound very traditional. Which is to say it’s unsafe to drive, it has be recalled until it is fixed. How the fix is implemented seems irrelevant.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
FireBeyond 3y ago
Lincoln had a safety recall that consisted of them sending me two pieces of paper with esoteric information about seats. Is that scummy, too?

wnevets 3y ago

Very concerning. Looking into it.

whoknowsidont 3y ago
insert poop emojis

peterisza 3y ago

Here's more info on how this solely UI-related recall affects the interface: https://twitter.com/DriveTeslaca/status/1753302155275157637 https://twitter.com/DriveTeslaca/status/1753302155275157637 Incorrect Font Size on Warning Lights/FMVSS 105: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2024/RCAK-24V051-8380.pdf https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2024/RCAK-24V051-8380.pdf

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

[dupe] More discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39231229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39231229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39216622 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39216622

kbos87 3y ago

It feels like regulators are at risk of crossing into the territory of issuing “recalls” against Tesla that they wouldn’t otherwise because 1) it’s actually possible for them to edit minuscule details through OTA updates, and 2) Tesla is against the ropes and they can score points by making it look like they are doing something. As an aside, I find the media fervor around any Tesla recall more ironic because of the fact that my Model Y is likely the safest car I’ve ever driven. It’s a IIHS top pick, is insanely good at detecting dangerous situations related to pedestrians and other vehicles, and there are so many software-based safety enhancements in this car that I’ve never seen in other vehicles.

FireBeyond 3y ago
> It feels like regulators are at risk of crossing into the territory of issuing “recalls” against Tesla that they wouldn’t otherwise because 1) it’s actually possible for them to edit minuscule details through OTA updates, and 2) Tesla is against the ropes and they can score points by making it look like they are doing something. I got a recall for my Lincoln Navigator that was "put these two pieces of paper between pages 186 and 187 of your manual. It contains additional information about your seats and operation". Sorry, if that is a "recall", so too is a required software update for safety. All this, despite Musk (and many Tesla fans) wanting to feel unreasonably attacked. > It’s a IIHS top pick So were twenty one other cars in the midsize luxury segment alone (Sixteen if you "only" count the Top Safety Pick+). > is insanely good at detecting dangerous situations related to pedestrians and other vehicles, and there are so many software-based safety enhancements in this car that I’ve never seen in other vehicles. Multiple times, multiple things I've heard Tesla owners express surprise at learning the "dinosaurs" also have, just from my cars alone: - Traffic Sign Recognition, including recognizing school zones, and recognizing active school zones. - Adaptive blind spot - so nice. Speed differential low, or you're going faster? Will not activate, or only activate last moment. But if someone is blowing by you in the HOV lane, it will warn of them when they're still several hundred feet back. - Laser headlights. Matrix headlights. Night vision with thermal imaging. - Predictive active suspension - The car actively scans the road ahead with sensors and it will adjust suspension for poorer road conditions. - The car can not just stop, but will actively swerve, if safe, around obstructions to avoid a collision, or even a parked car opening a door into traffic.

leetgirl83 3y ago

Actually all the mainstream news outlets including the biased Ars Technica adamantly REFUSED to mention software update in the headline and in the first paragraph. What could possibly the reason? Not enough space for headline? Instead we get headlines like "Tesla recalls all 2.2 million vehicles in the US amid probe of Autopilot crashes - WSJ"