4 ms·

Bunch of my friends have gotten seconds jobs doing wfh govt jobs. Problem isn't labor shortages, problem is bullshit jobs. Some even have three jobs. We would

Bunch of my friends have gotten seconds jobs doing wfh govt jobs. Problem isn't labor shortages, problem is bullshit jobs. Some even have three jobs. We would have enough bus drivers and train operators if we eliminated all bullshit white collar jobs.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
If the job is going unfilled, it isn't paying enough (either for conditions or to meet worker needs at some level), simple as that. There is a market clearing price, and unemployment is not at 0. 900+ US school districts have moved to a four day week to retain teachers [1] [2], for example, because they have no other choice. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/school-districts-4-day-week-teachers-parents/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/school-districts-4-day-week-tea... [2] https://www.npr.org/2023/11/08/1211632901/schools-across-the-u-s-are-trying-a-4-day-week-why-to-retain-teachers https://www.npr.org/2023/11/08/1211632901/schools-across-the...
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Bullshit jobs and productive jobs that do not pay enough to outbid bullshit jobs is the same problem - misallocation of resources.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    The market is allocating; to allocate more efficiently, move towards central planning where you can allocate more intelligently. Otherwise, this is the economy you've got. Big fan of Graeber, agree there's lots of bullshit jobs.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Are you suggesting the government does not have bullshit jobs? Surely there are bullshit white collar government jobs while at the same time the government is not paying teachers and bus drivers enough.
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        No, bullshit jobs are everywhere (gov, private industry, etc). I'm suggesting that the metrics we have currently to evaluate if a job is bullshit or not are insufficient to capture the true value of a job and its outcomes, leading to the inefficiencies of bullshit jobs. Central planning is likely the wrong phrase, I just don't have something better cooked up at the moment to describe, "Should this job really exist? Is it creating value in some way? Or is it just existing for some other suboptimal purpose?" Clearly, the market itself is not allocating efficiently if bullshit jobs exist in such great number. What is the solution? I don't know.
    - gottorf 3y ago
      > move towards central planning where you can allocate more intelligently My understanding is that there's a lot of historical evidence to suggest that central planning would do the opposite of better allocating resources. Besides, with US government spending at around a third of the GDP[0] now, plenty of that is going on, already. [0]: https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/exp@FPP https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/exp@FPP
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  >If the job is going unfilled, it isn't paying enough (either for conditions or to meet worker needs at some level), simple as that. For an individual Role, yes. for an economy, no, because you run into supply limitations. But anyways, that isnt the question. The question is which jobs add value and how to structure an organization so that it is efficient and effective. If your organization is crappy enough, you might not be able to get net value out of roles, even if you fill them. >900+ US school districts have moved to a four day week to retain teachers [1] [2], for example, because they have no other choice. From what I have seen in California Schools, there is more than enough money for teacher salary, but the grift and organization is the problem. State funding is ~ 23k per student, you have 30 students per class, or $700k/class. The average salary of public school teachers in 2021–22 for the State of California was $88,508.
leereeves 3y ago
> Some even have three jobs. Sounds like the problem is that people need three jobs to be comfortable.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  “Comfortable” is far too nebulous of a metric to be useful in this discussion. How do you know they don’t have 3 jobs to afford an unnecessarily large/extravagant/showoff vehicle/house/etc? How do you define unnecessary?
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  who says they weren't comfortable?
- apwell23 3y ago
  if by comfortable you mean owning 4 rental properties then yes.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

If the job is going unfilled, it isn't paying enough (either for conditions or to meet worker needs at some level), simple as that. There is a market clearing price, and unemployment is not at 0. 900+ US school districts have moved to a four day week to retain teachers [1] [2], for example, because they have no other choice. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/school-districts-4-day-week-teachers-parents/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/school-districts-4-day-week-tea... [2] https://www.npr.org/2023/11/08/1211632901/schools-across-the-u-s-are-trying-a-4-day-week-why-to-retain-teachers https://www.npr.org/2023/11/08/1211632901/schools-across-the...

lotsofpulp 3y ago
Bullshit jobs and productive jobs that do not pay enough to outbid bullshit jobs is the same problem - misallocation of resources.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  The market is allocating; to allocate more efficiently, move towards central planning where you can allocate more intelligently. Otherwise, this is the economy you've got. Big fan of Graeber, agree there's lots of bullshit jobs.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Are you suggesting the government does not have bullshit jobs? Surely there are bullshit white collar government jobs while at the same time the government is not paying teachers and bus drivers enough.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      No, bullshit jobs are everywhere (gov, private industry, etc). I'm suggesting that the metrics we have currently to evaluate if a job is bullshit or not are insufficient to capture the true value of a job and its outcomes, leading to the inefficiencies of bullshit jobs. Central planning is likely the wrong phrase, I just don't have something better cooked up at the moment to describe, "Should this job really exist? Is it creating value in some way? Or is it just existing for some other suboptimal purpose?" Clearly, the market itself is not allocating efficiently if bullshit jobs exist in such great number. What is the solution? I don't know.
  - gottorf 3y ago
    > move towards central planning where you can allocate more intelligently My understanding is that there's a lot of historical evidence to suggest that central planning would do the opposite of better allocating resources. Besides, with US government spending at around a third of the GDP[0] now, plenty of that is going on, already. [0]: https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/exp@FPP https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/exp@FPP
s1artibartfast 3y ago
>If the job is going unfilled, it isn't paying enough (either for conditions or to meet worker needs at some level), simple as that. For an individual Role, yes. for an economy, no, because you run into supply limitations. But anyways, that isnt the question. The question is which jobs add value and how to structure an organization so that it is efficient and effective. If your organization is crappy enough, you might not be able to get net value out of roles, even if you fill them. >900+ US school districts have moved to a four day week to retain teachers [1] [2], for example, because they have no other choice. From what I have seen in California Schools, there is more than enough money for teacher salary, but the grift and organization is the problem. State funding is ~ 23k per student, you have 30 students per class, or $700k/class. The average salary of public school teachers in 2021–22 for the State of California was $88,508.

leereeves 3y ago

> Some even have three jobs. Sounds like the problem is that people need three jobs to be comfortable.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
“Comfortable” is far too nebulous of a metric to be useful in this discussion. How do you know they don’t have 3 jobs to afford an unnecessarily large/extravagant/showoff vehicle/house/etc? How do you define unnecessary?
s1artibartfast 3y ago
who says they weren't comfortable?
apwell23 3y ago
if by comfortable you mean owning 4 rental properties then yes.