4 ms·

They have no definition for victory that they can achieve in Gaza or with Hezbollah and this is causing a lot of stress on the Israel government and Israeli soc

They have no definition for victory that they can achieve in Gaza or with Hezbollah and this is causing a lot of stress on the Israel government and Israeli society (especially because both still want to punish Palestinians). It seems like Israel is headed toward civil war at the least. I don't know how anyone could be bullish in the long run.

weatherlite 3y ago
I see no civil war in the cards anytime soon. We have serious issues but civil war isn't likely at all. I think its more likely to happen in the U.S than in Israel actually. I hope it doesn't happen in either place.
- smoothjazz 3y ago
  I think the reality is that at some point the Israel government is going to have to become a fully secular democracy. Do you think that can happen within the existing governmental system or will it require a completely new government?
  - weatherlite 3y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean Israel needs to cancel Zionism and become open for Palestinian immigration (e.g 'Right of Return')? Or simply become a more liberal version of the current Zionist system? The second is possible in the next election, people are sick of Netanyahu and his cronies.
    - smoothjazz 3y ago
      The former since that would be the definition of a secular democracy. The same immigration and citizenship laws regardless of religion or ethnicity. There's definitely need of some reparations as well, so I think right of return would play a role in re-establishing the Palestinian population from where they were displaced.
      - weatherlite 3y ago
        [flagged]
        smoothjazz 3y ago
        This matches what I've seen from Israelis, but the issue is that the rest of the world does think this is the best way forward. Support in the west is very generational and supporting Zionism will be politically lethal within 20 years. I don't see how Israel could keep an ethno-state intact without support from western allies. There's great pressure on Israel now to stop the war without having achieved any strategic victories. Repeated Oct 7th like events seem inevitable until Israelis face the reality of the situation and secularize. Also for the record, I fully support reparations to indigenous and Black Americans, so yes, my view is consistent.
        weatherlite 3y ago
        [flagged]
        smoothjazz 3y ago
        > You're saying you'd be willing to pay reparations for this and that, but those are empty words. If someone asked you to let go of your national identity, home and security you'd probably rethink the whole thing. If you are positive you're a 'settler colonist' you should voluntarily give up your possessions for the dispossessed. You have no real skin in the game. This is pretty rude and making a lot of assumptions. Why do you think I'm not indigenous myself? I'd much rather my taxes go to reparations than to Israel and I think that's the crux of your issue. Even people on the complete opposite end of the political spectrum from me would rather see their tax dollars go to something else (like say the US border -- again opposite of me) than to Israel.
        runarberg 3y ago
        > The Palestinians don't even want to live in a liberal democracy and definitely not in a binational liberal democracy with Jews This is a pretty racist and generalizing comment to make. Talking about Palestinians like this is not helping your cause.

weatherlite 3y ago

I see no civil war in the cards anytime soon. We have serious issues but civil war isn't likely at all. I think its more likely to happen in the U.S than in Israel actually. I hope it doesn't happen in either place.

smoothjazz 3y ago
I think the reality is that at some point the Israel government is going to have to become a fully secular democracy. Do you think that can happen within the existing governmental system or will it require a completely new government?
- weatherlite 3y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean Israel needs to cancel Zionism and become open for Palestinian immigration (e.g 'Right of Return')? Or simply become a more liberal version of the current Zionist system? The second is possible in the next election, people are sick of Netanyahu and his cronies.
  - smoothjazz 3y ago
    The former since that would be the definition of a secular democracy. The same immigration and citizenship laws regardless of religion or ethnicity. There's definitely need of some reparations as well, so I think right of return would play a role in re-establishing the Palestinian population from where they were displaced.
    - weatherlite 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - smoothjazz 3y ago
        This matches what I've seen from Israelis, but the issue is that the rest of the world does think this is the best way forward. Support in the west is very generational and supporting Zionism will be politically lethal within 20 years. I don't see how Israel could keep an ethno-state intact without support from western allies. There's great pressure on Israel now to stop the war without having achieved any strategic victories. Repeated Oct 7th like events seem inevitable until Israelis face the reality of the situation and secularize. Also for the record, I fully support reparations to indigenous and Black Americans, so yes, my view is consistent.
        weatherlite 3y ago
        [flagged]
        smoothjazz 3y ago
        > You're saying you'd be willing to pay reparations for this and that, but those are empty words. If someone asked you to let go of your national identity, home and security you'd probably rethink the whole thing. If you are positive you're a 'settler colonist' you should voluntarily give up your possessions for the dispossessed. You have no real skin in the game. This is pretty rude and making a lot of assumptions. Why do you think I'm not indigenous myself? I'd much rather my taxes go to reparations than to Israel and I think that's the crux of your issue. Even people on the complete opposite end of the political spectrum from me would rather see their tax dollars go to something else (like say the US border -- again opposite of me) than to Israel.
        runarberg 3y ago
        > The Palestinians don't even want to live in a liberal democracy and definitely not in a binational liberal democracy with Jews This is a pretty racist and generalizing comment to make. Talking about Palestinians like this is not helping your cause.