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Posting that you want a group of city councilors to die is not normal behavior. It's not normal when sober, it's not normal on alcohol, it's not normal for any

Posting that you want a group of city councilors to die is not normal behavior. It's not normal when sober, it's not normal on alcohol, it's not normal for any functioning member of society. Anyone saying these things is disturbing. The fact that someone who a number of people believe is intelligent and worth listening to would say such things is extremely disturbing.

echelon 3y ago
If one's own side of the horeshoe [1] had made the gaffe, it's sticks and stones. We're a bunch of evolved apes. Sometimes we say things we don't mean. They'll get over it. If the other side said it, oh dear. We'd best remove them from their job, their payroll, shun them forever, and make sure they never have power again. I think the correct approach is to have a conversation, to seek an apology, and to hold the party to being better. Strike one; it's water under the bridge. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
- handoflixue 3y ago
  > If one's own side of the horeshoe [1] had made the gaffe, it's sticks and stones. Some of us have enough principles to complain even when "our" side does horrible stuff. When a friend does it, I might be more inclined to talk to them in private rather than blast them in public, but that's a mix of "I am more likely to change their mind if I don't antagonize them by making this public" and "I have absolutely no social media presence, so me calling someone out doesn't really make a difference."
- sofixa 3y ago
  > If one's own side of the horeshoe [1] had made the gaffe, it's sticks and stones. We're a bunch of evolved apes. Sometimes we say things we don't mean. They'll get over it. > If the other side said it, oh dear. We'd best remove them from their job, their payroll, shun them forever, and make sure they never have power again. Care to share some examples?
anonymoushn 3y ago
When a group of people routinely cause harm to other people that is in aggregate much greater than the harm involved in them dying, I think it's understandable for the thought to come to mind.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- kyleamazza 3y ago
  The thought, yes, but a public post as the public head of a very publicly visible company?... Go ahead and post it yourself, it seems reasonable, yes?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
roenxi 3y ago
> ... not normal behavior ... Are we sure about that? There are politicians who have coordinated/enabled things with consequences that would justify capital punishment if someone believes in that as an option. For example, from a raw moral perspective a reasonable person could support executing the entire congressional Aye vote for the US sending the army into Afghanistan. That would be a terrible mistake, because the incentives don't check out, politics would become a bloodbath when people make honest mistakes, bloody vengeance helps no-one and there is a plausible question around whether the person voting is making a personal decision or just trying to channel their voters. But since it is a superficially reasonable position I assume people would say that sort of thing regularly. To argue it out and learn why it is a bad idea, if nothing else.
- kyleamazza 3y ago
  In the situation you posit, that sort of action would come from a vote, not a single person's vigilante call for action. That is the difference. While I'd argue for a normal person that posting something like that would just fly under the radar and disappear into the aether of the internet, the same does not apply to someone who heads a large publicly visible company, and who posts publicly on an account associated (implicitly) with that company.
  - roenxi 3y ago
    Well, 1. Votes come at the end of a process starting with someone calling for action. Has to be a first person to bring the idea up; and Twitter is as good a place for public debate as we have. (If only people could master the longform paragraph, or even essay-length debate and move to somewhere a bit more nuanced.) 2. Reflecting on the "Die slow motherfuckers" for a little while - Tan didn't actually make a call for action. Exactly what that means is ambiguous, and it is without a doubt poor form. > someone who heads a large publicly visible company If the board wants to sack him I could certainly see that happening. Although as a practical matter, I don't think this is a sustainable standard. A good CEO is worth their weight in gold, sacking them over being a Twitter troll from time to time seems like a bad call. Musk is an example; both a troll and also a pretty amazing CEO. The right thing to do might be to tolerate the situation unless the pressure gets overwhelming. On that point we've been tolerating outward displays of political speech from corporations for a while. I'm against it both on principle and because it is typically left-wing-aligned but since it happens I don't see why this sort of political diatribe is needs to be stepped on. Dude has political opinions. We all do.
HeWhoLurksLate 3y ago
Is it just me, or does nobody here remember the random baloney they did or said when they were in high school or college? People being frustrated and saying things that aren't quite acceptable is fairly common, seemingly especially when alcohol is involved. Can we all just like I dunno chill out a bit? Who cares, and how does this affect me?
- alpaca128 3y ago
  Did you also share that random baloney on a public account with your company logo on it? Probably not. And alcohol is not an excuse just because it happens to be legal compared to other drugs.
rayiner 3y ago
What are you talking about? Political effigies are a whole thing, and not just in America: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/giant-trump-effigy-burned-uk-bonfire-n678481 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/giant-trump-e...
- r00fus 3y ago
  This is the UK - do you have a US example? Because I know that doing this with current POTUS will get you a visit from Secret Service.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    > Because I know that doing this with current POTUS will get you a visit from Secret Service. Funny. That makes it sound like USA is the USSR from the childhood jokes about the difference between USA and the USSR.
  - tpmoney 3y ago
    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/los-angeles-protestors-burn-donald-trumps-head-effigy-946062/ https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/los-ange... https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/trump-pinata-school/ https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/trump-pinata-school/ https://am870theanswer.com/all/la-antifa-group-hangs-trump-in-effigy https://am870theanswer.com/all/la-antifa-group-hangs-trump-i... https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/donald-trump-effigy-hangs-from-tree-with-noose-around-its-neck https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/donald-trump-effigy-hangs... https://www.coloradoan.com/picture-gallery/news/2021/01/01/fort-collins-movie-theater-burns-president-donald-trump-effigy-new-years-eve-bonfire-goodbye-2020/4106556001/ https://www.coloradoan.com/picture-gallery/news/2021/01/01/f... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3500960/I-hate-Trump-Shocking-moment-Salt-Lake-City-protester-BEHEADS-effigy-Donald-Trump-steps-city-hall.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3500960/I-hate-Trum... https://www.flickr.com/photos/fibonacciblue/31620818443 https://www.flickr.com/photos/fibonacciblue/31620818443 https://www.newsweek.com/protest-trump-doll-guillotine-outside-white-house-rnc-1528381 https://www.newsweek.com/protest-trump-doll-guillotine-outsi... And that's just the last president. If you search, you'll find plenty of similar examples for Obama and Bush too. Going further back than that will probably be harder to find records for, but yeah we have a long tradition of wishing death on our politicians and expressing that quite loudly. And almost all the time, it's certainly legal, whether or not the local community is keen on it varies.

echelon 3y ago

If one's own side of the horeshoe [1] had made the gaffe, it's sticks and stones. We're a bunch of evolved apes. Sometimes we say things we don't mean. They'll get over it. If the other side said it, oh dear. We'd best remove them from their job, their payroll, shun them forever, and make sure they never have power again. I think the correct approach is to have a conversation, to seek an apology, and to hold the party to being better. Strike one; it's water under the bridge. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

handoflixue 3y ago
> If one's own side of the horeshoe [1] had made the gaffe, it's sticks and stones. Some of us have enough principles to complain even when "our" side does horrible stuff. When a friend does it, I might be more inclined to talk to them in private rather than blast them in public, but that's a mix of "I am more likely to change their mind if I don't antagonize them by making this public" and "I have absolutely no social media presence, so me calling someone out doesn't really make a difference."
sofixa 3y ago
> If one's own side of the horeshoe [1] had made the gaffe, it's sticks and stones. We're a bunch of evolved apes. Sometimes we say things we don't mean. They'll get over it. > If the other side said it, oh dear. We'd best remove them from their job, their payroll, shun them forever, and make sure they never have power again. Care to share some examples?

anonymoushn 3y ago

When a group of people routinely cause harm to other people that is in aggregate much greater than the harm involved in them dying, I think it's understandable for the thought to come to mind.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
kyleamazza 3y ago
The thought, yes, but a public post as the public head of a very publicly visible company?... Go ahead and post it yourself, it seems reasonable, yes?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

roenxi 3y ago

> ... not normal behavior ... Are we sure about that? There are politicians who have coordinated/enabled things with consequences that would justify capital punishment if someone believes in that as an option. For example, from a raw moral perspective a reasonable person could support executing the entire congressional Aye vote for the US sending the army into Afghanistan. That would be a terrible mistake, because the incentives don't check out, politics would become a bloodbath when people make honest mistakes, bloody vengeance helps no-one and there is a plausible question around whether the person voting is making a personal decision or just trying to channel their voters. But since it is a superficially reasonable position I assume people would say that sort of thing regularly. To argue it out and learn why it is a bad idea, if nothing else.

kyleamazza 3y ago
In the situation you posit, that sort of action would come from a vote, not a single person's vigilante call for action. That is the difference. While I'd argue for a normal person that posting something like that would just fly under the radar and disappear into the aether of the internet, the same does not apply to someone who heads a large publicly visible company, and who posts publicly on an account associated (implicitly) with that company.
- roenxi 3y ago
  Well, 1. Votes come at the end of a process starting with someone calling for action. Has to be a first person to bring the idea up; and Twitter is as good a place for public debate as we have. (If only people could master the longform paragraph, or even essay-length debate and move to somewhere a bit more nuanced.) 2. Reflecting on the "Die slow motherfuckers" for a little while - Tan didn't actually make a call for action. Exactly what that means is ambiguous, and it is without a doubt poor form. > someone who heads a large publicly visible company If the board wants to sack him I could certainly see that happening. Although as a practical matter, I don't think this is a sustainable standard. A good CEO is worth their weight in gold, sacking them over being a Twitter troll from time to time seems like a bad call. Musk is an example; both a troll and also a pretty amazing CEO. The right thing to do might be to tolerate the situation unless the pressure gets overwhelming. On that point we've been tolerating outward displays of political speech from corporations for a while. I'm against it both on principle and because it is typically left-wing-aligned but since it happens I don't see why this sort of political diatribe is needs to be stepped on. Dude has political opinions. We all do.

HeWhoLurksLate 3y ago

Is it just me, or does nobody here remember the random baloney they did or said when they were in high school or college? People being frustrated and saying things that aren't quite acceptable is fairly common, seemingly especially when alcohol is involved. Can we all just like I dunno chill out a bit? Who cares, and how does this affect me?

alpaca128 3y ago
Did you also share that random baloney on a public account with your company logo on it? Probably not. And alcohol is not an excuse just because it happens to be legal compared to other drugs.

rayiner 3y ago

What are you talking about? Political effigies are a whole thing, and not just in America: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/giant-trump-effigy-burned-uk-bonfire-n678481 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/giant-trump-e...

r00fus 3y ago
This is the UK - do you have a US example? Because I know that doing this with current POTUS will get you a visit from Secret Service.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  > Because I know that doing this with current POTUS will get you a visit from Secret Service. Funny. That makes it sound like USA is the USSR from the childhood jokes about the difference between USA and the USSR.
- tpmoney 3y ago
  https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/los-angeles-protestors-burn-donald-trumps-head-effigy-946062/ https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/los-ange... https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/trump-pinata-school/ https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/trump-pinata-school/ https://am870theanswer.com/all/la-antifa-group-hangs-trump-in-effigy https://am870theanswer.com/all/la-antifa-group-hangs-trump-i... https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/donald-trump-effigy-hangs-from-tree-with-noose-around-its-neck https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/donald-trump-effigy-hangs... https://www.coloradoan.com/picture-gallery/news/2021/01/01/fort-collins-movie-theater-burns-president-donald-trump-effigy-new-years-eve-bonfire-goodbye-2020/4106556001/ https://www.coloradoan.com/picture-gallery/news/2021/01/01/f... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3500960/I-hate-Trump-Shocking-moment-Salt-Lake-City-protester-BEHEADS-effigy-Donald-Trump-steps-city-hall.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3500960/I-hate-Trum... https://www.flickr.com/photos/fibonacciblue/31620818443 https://www.flickr.com/photos/fibonacciblue/31620818443 https://www.newsweek.com/protest-trump-doll-guillotine-outside-white-house-rnc-1528381 https://www.newsweek.com/protest-trump-doll-guillotine-outsi... And that's just the last president. If you search, you'll find plenty of similar examples for Obama and Bush too. Going further back than that will probably be harder to find records for, but yeah we have a long tradition of wishing death on our politicians and expressing that quite loudly. And almost all the time, it's certainly legal, whether or not the local community is keen on it varies.