4 ms·

Can we also start taxing churches, nationwide?!

HideousKojima 3y ago
Any church that engages in for-profit activities is already taxed. The only "special" treatment churches get is they're assumed by default to be non-profits while other non-profits have to apply for the status.
- InvertedRhodium 3y ago
  Furthering religious beliefs is a bonafide charitable act here in NZ, not just the assumption of non profit status. They don’t to feed the hungry, clothe the poor or do anything beyond converting other people to their religion in order to pay 0 taxes. That’s where I have an issue with it.
- burkaman 3y ago
  They also don't have file a form 990 or provide any information about their operations, and there is no requirement that they benefit their community or society in any way. Both of those are unique to churches.
edgyquant 3y ago
No, for one thing churches exist off of donations even if we wanted to tax them (which we shouldn’t, they aren’t businesses)
- jjtheblunt 3y ago
  They’re definitely businesses sometimes: the Mormon church holds billions in investment properties that they profit off. An example of countless articles: https://www.wsj.com/articles/mormon-church-temple-spending-spree-utah-e167977f https://www.wsj.com/articles/mormon-church-temple-spending-s...
  - HideousKojima 3y ago
    >They’re definitely businesses sometimes: the Mormon church holds billions in investment properties that they profit off. And they pay taxes on any profits generated by their for profit subsidiaries: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/04/17/lds-wealth-spurs-question/ https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/04/17/lds-wealth-spurs-... "Churches with unrelated business income pay taxes on that income, Brunson noted, as the LDS Church reportedly does on its for-profit businesses."
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      Which seems weird, if I'm not misunderstanding this. So if you make profit and donate it to a charity, you can deduct it and they don't pay tax on it either. But if the charity makes a profit, effectively donating the money to itself, it does? What?
    - jjtheblunt 3y ago
      An LDS whistleblower disagrees: the LDS church created an elaborate complex of shell companies to disguise for profit investments for roughly two documented decades. The SEC penalized them a tiny fraction of what the whistleblower documented. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/mormon-church-multibillion-investment-fund-sec-settlement-rcna71603 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/mormon-church...
tengbretson 3y ago
The legal construct you are attacking here is the very thing preventing a tax on apostasy.
ActorNightly 3y ago
Super unpopular opinion: Most churches (with the obvious exception of megachurches amongst others) do more good than harm. I feel like they are good for local communities because its one of the few places that people interact face to face, and the downsides of religion "brainwashing" probably happens more on the internet than irl. Im ok with letting churches be.
- tacitusarc 3y ago
  I think it has become evident in the past decade that this is the case, especially in large urban environments.
- Ankaios 3y ago
  A lot of bookstores and restaurants do more good than harm, and we tax them.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    Bookstores and restaurants are profit-seeking entities. If they were nonprofits then we wouldn't tax them.
    - jazzyjackson 3y ago
      pity there's no tax exemption for nonprophets
    - ProllyInfamous 3y ago
      >profit-seeking entities As a child, this was how I always felt when the Catholic Collection Plate would circulate among the congregation. >[doing good for community] I also think that all hospitals should pay taxes — until there is some sort of single-payer universal healthcare institution.
      - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        > As a child, this was how I always felt when the Catholic Collection Plate would circulate among the congregation. Profit in this context means filthy lucre that the business owners have every right to spend on strippers and cigarettes and private islands. Churches are more restricted in what they can do with it and moreover tend to lose their patronage if that's what they're spending the money on, as opposed to private businesses whose patrons give money in exchange for books or food and don't really care if the owners are using the profits to play blackjack in Vegas. > I also think that all hospitals should pay taxes — until there is some sort of single-payer universal healthcare institution. What does that have to do with anything? Business operating expenses are generally deductible and their "income taxes" are effectively taxes on profit. A non-profit doesn't have any owners to receive profits, so they either operate with with a neutral budget or put any net income into an endowment that allows them to survive if future years are leaner or provide more services or charge lower prices. Taxing them would only cause them to have lower quality or higher prices or go bankrupt more often.
davidgay 3y ago
Hey, be glad you don't live in various European countries - you could pay tax to the church instead (yes, you can avoid it in most cases AFAIK) ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax
pquki4 3y ago
Any politician in support of that will see the end of their politic career.
- ProllyInfamous 3y ago
  My local US county is about to have a major shit-show when the local property tax assessor gets replaced with somebody half his age [1], and finally appraises his Silent Generation friends' properties at fair market value. Now if we could just get them all to agree that funding a new minor league baseball stadium is ridiculous! Particularly with all the county funding in addition to tax rebates. <They already have a stadium that is suitable> [1] Last local election cycle, of our 5 electable candidates THREE were decades younger than incumbent/predecesor.

Any church that engages in for-profit activities is already taxed. The only "special" treatment churches get is they're assumed by default to be non-profits while other non-profits have to apply for the status.

InvertedRhodium 3y ago
Furthering religious beliefs is a bonafide charitable act here in NZ, not just the assumption of non profit status. They don’t to feed the hungry, clothe the poor or do anything beyond converting other people to their religion in order to pay 0 taxes. That’s where I have an issue with it.
burkaman 3y ago
They also don't have file a form 990 or provide any information about their operations, and there is no requirement that they benefit their community or society in any way. Both of those are unique to churches.

edgyquant 3y ago

No, for one thing churches exist off of donations even if we wanted to tax them (which we shouldn’t, they aren’t businesses)

jjtheblunt 3y ago
They’re definitely businesses sometimes: the Mormon church holds billions in investment properties that they profit off. An example of countless articles: https://www.wsj.com/articles/mormon-church-temple-spending-spree-utah-e167977f https://www.wsj.com/articles/mormon-church-temple-spending-s...
- HideousKojima 3y ago
  >They’re definitely businesses sometimes: the Mormon church holds billions in investment properties that they profit off. And they pay taxes on any profits generated by their for profit subsidiaries: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/04/17/lds-wealth-spurs-question/ https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/04/17/lds-wealth-spurs-... "Churches with unrelated business income pay taxes on that income, Brunson noted, as the LDS Church reportedly does on its for-profit businesses."
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    Which seems weird, if I'm not misunderstanding this. So if you make profit and donate it to a charity, you can deduct it and they don't pay tax on it either. But if the charity makes a profit, effectively donating the money to itself, it does? What?
  - jjtheblunt 3y ago
    An LDS whistleblower disagrees: the LDS church created an elaborate complex of shell companies to disguise for profit investments for roughly two documented decades. The SEC penalized them a tiny fraction of what the whistleblower documented. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/mormon-church-multibillion-investment-fund-sec-settlement-rcna71603 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/mormon-church...

tengbretson 3y ago

The legal construct you are attacking here is the very thing preventing a tax on apostasy.

ActorNightly 3y ago

Super unpopular opinion: Most churches (with the obvious exception of megachurches amongst others) do more good than harm. I feel like they are good for local communities because its one of the few places that people interact face to face, and the downsides of religion "brainwashing" probably happens more on the internet than irl. Im ok with letting churches be.

tacitusarc 3y ago
I think it has become evident in the past decade that this is the case, especially in large urban environments.
Ankaios 3y ago
A lot of bookstores and restaurants do more good than harm, and we tax them.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  Bookstores and restaurants are profit-seeking entities. If they were nonprofits then we wouldn't tax them.
  - jazzyjackson 3y ago
    pity there's no tax exemption for nonprophets
  - ProllyInfamous 3y ago
    >profit-seeking entities As a child, this was how I always felt when the Catholic Collection Plate would circulate among the congregation. >[doing good for community] I also think that all hospitals should pay taxes — until there is some sort of single-payer universal healthcare institution.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      > As a child, this was how I always felt when the Catholic Collection Plate would circulate among the congregation. Profit in this context means filthy lucre that the business owners have every right to spend on strippers and cigarettes and private islands. Churches are more restricted in what they can do with it and moreover tend to lose their patronage if that's what they're spending the money on, as opposed to private businesses whose patrons give money in exchange for books or food and don't really care if the owners are using the profits to play blackjack in Vegas. > I also think that all hospitals should pay taxes — until there is some sort of single-payer universal healthcare institution. What does that have to do with anything? Business operating expenses are generally deductible and their "income taxes" are effectively taxes on profit. A non-profit doesn't have any owners to receive profits, so they either operate with with a neutral budget or put any net income into an endowment that allows them to survive if future years are leaner or provide more services or charge lower prices. Taxing them would only cause them to have lower quality or higher prices or go bankrupt more often.

davidgay 3y ago

Hey, be glad you don't live in various European countries - you could pay tax to the church instead (yes, you can avoid it in most cases AFAIK) ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax

pquki4 3y ago

Any politician in support of that will see the end of their politic career.

ProllyInfamous 3y ago
My local US county is about to have a major shit-show when the local property tax assessor gets replaced with somebody half his age [1], and finally appraises his Silent Generation friends' properties at fair market value. Now if we could just get them all to agree that funding a new minor league baseball stadium is ridiculous! Particularly with all the county funding in addition to tax rebates. <They already have a stadium that is suitable> [1] Last local election cycle, of our 5 electable candidates THREE were decades younger than incumbent/predecesor.