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I never said we should defund pure math. How many pure mathematicians have gotten tenure in math departments and were subsequently forced to work on "applicati

I never said we should defund pure math. How many pure mathematicians have gotten tenure in math departments and were subsequently forced to work on "applications"? Do you have any actual examples? How many superstar researchers have been forced to teach against their will? If they're working as a regular, tenure-track professor, then teaching is part of their job. The word doctor comes from the Latin word for teacher!

chongli 3y ago
You didn’t say “defund pure mathematics” but you implied it with your original statement: A mathematician or scientist working on something terribly narrow and abstruse is arguably only working on something in service of making themselves happy and fulfilled. Since they are frequently supported by taxpayer money, asking whether what they're working on is worth that expense is totally legitimate To me this reads as “pure mathematics is a taxpayer-funded hobby that provides no value to society.” Is that an unfair reading? I don’t know how else to parse the statement that mathematicians are ”arguably only working on something in service of making themselves happy and fulfilled.” If that is what they’re doing then why shouldn’t they be defunded? As for teaching, plenty of pure mathematicians do teach graduate students. Asking a world-leading number theorist to teach first year algebra class is silly though. Universities hire dedicated teaching faculty for those courses. Many of the expert researchers are terrible at teaching. I also want to add that the reason universities covet superstar researchers (in any field) is because they bring in grant money (paying for themselves and then some) and because research elevates the profile of the school in the world rankings. The best schools have the best researchers but that doesn’t mean they provide the best education. Trying to fix this is an enormous challenge because you’ve got to tackle the issue of schools competing against each other for students. The losing schools are going bankrupt [1]. [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/queens-university-budget-deficit-fears-1.7097922 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/queens-university-budg...
- sfpotter 3y ago
  I'm not saying we should defund math. I'm saying that it's perfectly fair and reasonable to think through how much sense it makes to allocate research funds for pure math. More specifically, I'm pushing because on the idea that it isn't okay to discuss this because past math successes have been useful in other areas. People really seem to cling to this argument and it doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe, at the end of the day, after thinking about it, it will make sense to continue funding pure math or even fund it more. I agree that having a top number theorist teach Algebra I is a waste, but it's not a waste having them teaching undergraduate abstract algebra or number theory. The bigger issue is that in many places, there is very little expectation of teaching quality. I'm not sure this is connected to the issue of competition over students. The average math undergrad isn't picking a school based on how many Fields medalists it has. I should say that I took number theory in undergrad from a top number theorist, and he was a phenomenally good teacher. I could have taken abstract algebra from him, too, if I had timed it right. Taking the craft of teaching seriously and being a good researcher aren't mutually exclusive!

chongli 3y ago

You didn’t say “defund pure mathematics” but you implied it with your original statement: A mathematician or scientist working on something terribly narrow and abstruse is arguably only working on something in service of making themselves happy and fulfilled. Since they are frequently supported by taxpayer money, asking whether what they're working on is worth that expense is totally legitimate To me this reads as “pure mathematics is a taxpayer-funded hobby that provides no value to society.” Is that an unfair reading? I don’t know how else to parse the statement that mathematicians are ”arguably only working on something in service of making themselves happy and fulfilled.” If that is what they’re doing then why shouldn’t they be defunded? As for teaching, plenty of pure mathematicians do teach graduate students. Asking a world-leading number theorist to teach first year algebra class is silly though. Universities hire dedicated teaching faculty for those courses. Many of the expert researchers are terrible at teaching. I also want to add that the reason universities covet superstar researchers (in any field) is because they bring in grant money (paying for themselves and then some) and because research elevates the profile of the school in the world rankings. The best schools have the best researchers but that doesn’t mean they provide the best education. Trying to fix this is an enormous challenge because you’ve got to tackle the issue of schools competing against each other for students. The losing schools are going bankrupt [1]. [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/queens-university-budget-deficit-fears-1.7097922 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/queens-university-budg...

sfpotter 3y ago
I'm not saying we should defund math. I'm saying that it's perfectly fair and reasonable to think through how much sense it makes to allocate research funds for pure math. More specifically, I'm pushing because on the idea that it isn't okay to discuss this because past math successes have been useful in other areas. People really seem to cling to this argument and it doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe, at the end of the day, after thinking about it, it will make sense to continue funding pure math or even fund it more. I agree that having a top number theorist teach Algebra I is a waste, but it's not a waste having them teaching undergraduate abstract algebra or number theory. The bigger issue is that in many places, there is very little expectation of teaching quality. I'm not sure this is connected to the issue of competition over students. The average math undergrad isn't picking a school based on how many Fields medalists it has. I should say that I took number theory in undergrad from a top number theorist, and he was a phenomenally good teacher. I could have taken abstract algebra from him, too, if I had timed it right. Taking the craft of teaching seriously and being a good researcher aren't mutually exclusive!