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Nobody can make someone else motivated. You can put someone in a situation where they can motivate themselves, but you personally can’t make anyone motivated t

Nobody can make someone else motivated. You can put someone in a situation where they can motivate themselves, but you personally can’t make anyone motivated to do anything. If you disagree, think about this: Would you bet your life that if you offered me $1,000,000 to work at Burger King for a year that I’d be motivated to take the offer? What about paying me $1,000,000,000 to sit on a beach for a year? Or maybe just a weekend?

JohnFen 3y ago
> Nobody can make someone else motivated. This is certainly true. But people can easily demotivate others.
- paulcole 3y ago
  Also false. Would you bet your life that you could demotivate me and prevent me from sweeping my apartment floors tomorrow morning? What about demotivating me and keeping me from eating dinner tonight? You can create a situation where I can become demotivated but ultimately I set my own level of motivation.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Maybe I couldn't demotivate you when it comes to your personal stuff, but I bet I could demotivate you in the workplace. Well, maybe not you -- you might be an exceptional person in this regard -- but the majority of people.
    - paulcole 3y ago
      Yes, I generally agree with that. But the fact that you are able to take an action that leads to people being demotivated doesn’t mean that you demotivated those people. The people demotivated themselves as a result of your actions. They could’ve just as easily remained motivated — they just chose not to.
  - BobaFloutist 3y ago
    That's like saying nobody can ever steal from anyone else because I wouldn't be willing to bet my life that I could steal your wallet from you. Just because things aren't 100% reliable, doesn't mean they're not possible.
    - paulcole 3y ago
      OK then how much would you be willing to bet that you could demotivate or motivate me? The difference in the wallet theft vs. motivation idea is that you have 0 control over my motivation. I am in 100% control of my motivation. You may be able to try to increase or decrease my motivation but you can’t control it. Motivation’s not a thing you can pick up and take like a wallet. It’s not real and it’s mine.
      - BobaFloutist 3y ago
        I think if I were your direct supervisor I'd be about as confident in my ability to demotivate you as I would be in my ability to steal your wallet if I were a proficient pickpocket.
        paulcole 3y ago
        And you’d be wrong, in my opinion. If you’re a proficient pickpocket you’d be able to use your skill to take my wallet. I have no skill at actively protecting my wallet or knowing anything about pickpocketing. If you’re my boss, I’m very confident that my ability to maintain my motivation is superior to your ability to demotivate me. I’d confidently bet $5,000 on that — not that it’s a wager we can play out unless we work together one day.
  - betenoire 3y ago
    I mean, I get what you are saying I think... but was is the practical difference between "you can put me in a place where I become demotivated" and "you can't demotivate me"? The whole industry of coaching seemingly contradicts this take. I can become motivated from someone sharing a vision of what is possible that I didn't understand or believe in, and I can become unmotivated from eating dinner from watching a documentary on the food industry.
    - paulcole 3y ago
      > you can put me in a place where I become demotivated You’re leaving out an important word there. > you can put me in a place where I can become demotivated It’s not a foregone conclusion that I become demotivated because of your actions. Because your actions don’t guarantee my reaction. > I can become unmotivated from eating dinner from watching a documentary on the food industry. Yes, except that the demotivation is your action. Many people can happily eat dinner after watching the same documentary. The movie maker can try to influence your reaction but they don’t dictate it.
shermantanktop 3y ago
That’s the problem with homo economicus, the rational choice agent that makes economists swoon but is not so easy to find in reality. People have many reasons why they do what they do and sometimes they don’t understand their own motivations.
- paulcole 3y ago
  > People have many reasons why they do what they do and sometimes they don’t understand their own motivations. So we’re in agreement here right? That people are doing things themselves. Others are not forcing their actions. Regardless of whether people consciously understand the reasoning behind their actions, their actions are still their own.
  - shermantanktop 3y ago
    That’s where I think it gets complicated. At a physical level, yes, of course. But at the psychological or moral level, it’s murkier. People can be coerced, manipulated, or just plain drugged, and in a legal setting we would consider those to reduce culpability.
    - paulcole 3y ago
      You do make a fair point that makes me reconsider this more. However I think drugging someone is where you edge away from the concept of motivation into something else. But then it’s like is giving me a sulfonylurea motivating my pancreas to release a bit more insulin? Kind of, I think? Maybe if you’re doing something that produces an involuntary and uncontrollable physical reaction, you can’t describe that as motivation? I’m not set on that though.
      - shermantanktop 3y ago
        Setting aside drugs… Sophisticated methods of coercive manipulation involve the coercing party looking at all the choices and options available to the target, and systematically removing or undermining all but the preferred option. Dark patterns in UX, legally dubious arbitration dispute clauses in consumer contracts, push polling, etc. At that point, the target is still free to choose, but the options they choose from are stacked. They can still choose a non-optimal choice but probably won’t.

JohnFen 3y ago

> Nobody can make someone else motivated. This is certainly true. But people can easily demotivate others.

paulcole 3y ago
Also false. Would you bet your life that you could demotivate me and prevent me from sweeping my apartment floors tomorrow morning? What about demotivating me and keeping me from eating dinner tonight? You can create a situation where I can become demotivated but ultimately I set my own level of motivation.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Maybe I couldn't demotivate you when it comes to your personal stuff, but I bet I could demotivate you in the workplace. Well, maybe not you -- you might be an exceptional person in this regard -- but the majority of people.
  - paulcole 3y ago
    Yes, I generally agree with that. But the fact that you are able to take an action that leads to people being demotivated doesn’t mean that you demotivated those people. The people demotivated themselves as a result of your actions. They could’ve just as easily remained motivated — they just chose not to.
- BobaFloutist 3y ago
  That's like saying nobody can ever steal from anyone else because I wouldn't be willing to bet my life that I could steal your wallet from you. Just because things aren't 100% reliable, doesn't mean they're not possible.
  - paulcole 3y ago
    OK then how much would you be willing to bet that you could demotivate or motivate me? The difference in the wallet theft vs. motivation idea is that you have 0 control over my motivation. I am in 100% control of my motivation. You may be able to try to increase or decrease my motivation but you can’t control it. Motivation’s not a thing you can pick up and take like a wallet. It’s not real and it’s mine.
    - BobaFloutist 3y ago
      I think if I were your direct supervisor I'd be about as confident in my ability to demotivate you as I would be in my ability to steal your wallet if I were a proficient pickpocket.
      - paulcole 3y ago
        And you’d be wrong, in my opinion. If you’re a proficient pickpocket you’d be able to use your skill to take my wallet. I have no skill at actively protecting my wallet or knowing anything about pickpocketing. If you’re my boss, I’m very confident that my ability to maintain my motivation is superior to your ability to demotivate me. I’d confidently bet $5,000 on that — not that it’s a wager we can play out unless we work together one day.
- betenoire 3y ago
  I mean, I get what you are saying I think... but was is the practical difference between "you can put me in a place where I become demotivated" and "you can't demotivate me"? The whole industry of coaching seemingly contradicts this take. I can become motivated from someone sharing a vision of what is possible that I didn't understand or believe in, and I can become unmotivated from eating dinner from watching a documentary on the food industry.
  - paulcole 3y ago
    > you can put me in a place where I become demotivated You’re leaving out an important word there. > you can put me in a place where I can become demotivated It’s not a foregone conclusion that I become demotivated because of your actions. Because your actions don’t guarantee my reaction. > I can become unmotivated from eating dinner from watching a documentary on the food industry. Yes, except that the demotivation is your action. Many people can happily eat dinner after watching the same documentary. The movie maker can try to influence your reaction but they don’t dictate it.

shermantanktop 3y ago

That’s the problem with homo economicus, the rational choice agent that makes economists swoon but is not so easy to find in reality. People have many reasons why they do what they do and sometimes they don’t understand their own motivations.

paulcole 3y ago
> People have many reasons why they do what they do and sometimes they don’t understand their own motivations. So we’re in agreement here right? That people are doing things themselves. Others are not forcing their actions. Regardless of whether people consciously understand the reasoning behind their actions, their actions are still their own.
- shermantanktop 3y ago
  That’s where I think it gets complicated. At a physical level, yes, of course. But at the psychological or moral level, it’s murkier. People can be coerced, manipulated, or just plain drugged, and in a legal setting we would consider those to reduce culpability.
  - paulcole 3y ago
    You do make a fair point that makes me reconsider this more. However I think drugging someone is where you edge away from the concept of motivation into something else. But then it’s like is giving me a sulfonylurea motivating my pancreas to release a bit more insulin? Kind of, I think? Maybe if you’re doing something that produces an involuntary and uncontrollable physical reaction, you can’t describe that as motivation? I’m not set on that though.
    - shermantanktop 3y ago
      Setting aside drugs… Sophisticated methods of coercive manipulation involve the coercing party looking at all the choices and options available to the target, and systematically removing or undermining all but the preferred option. Dark patterns in UX, legally dubious arbitration dispute clauses in consumer contracts, push polling, etc. At that point, the target is still free to choose, but the options they choose from are stacked. They can still choose a non-optimal choice but probably won’t.