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This whole news wave seems like propoganda to me. This is all about the weight of the vehicle, it has nothing to do with the fuel. This will be the same for a

by johnea 3y ago

This whole news wave seems like propoganda to me. This is all about the weight of the vehicle, it has nothing to do with the fuel. This will be the same for a premium escalade: Premium Luxury 4x4 2022 Cadillac Escalade Gross weight, 7,600 lbs

tptacek 3y ago
It's worth noting that EVs aren't the only vehicles that crest the 5,000-pound mark. Any full-sized, heavy-duty pickup on the market will easily surpass 6,000 pounds, with some like the Ford F-350 and Silverado HD 2500 even exceeding 7,000 pounds. Even the Chevy Suburban, a fairly common vehicle for families, can tip the scales at over 6,000 pounds depending on its powertrain. But EVs are universally heavier than gas cars of equal dimensions thanks to their batteries, and many of them are already beyond the limit.
- falcolas 3y ago
  > But EVs are universally heavier than gas cars of equal dimensions thanks to their batteries, and many of them are already beyond the limit. And this definitely matters. The energy required to stop a vehicle is a linear correlation to the mass, and our ability to stop vehicles quickly still relies on creating heat using friction; it has not progressed nearly as quickly as our ability to accelerate vehicles.
  - brucethemoose2 3y ago
    Even a junker can lock its wheels under hard braking, right? AFAIK the limiting factors are tire grip, ABS control and of course mass.
    - MadnessASAP 3y ago
      I wouldn't assume that. I've definitely been in a few junkers that couldn't do it on warm, clean, and dry pavement. Although you've already got pretty good braking performance in those conditions anyways. Even then though, the travel of the brake pedal may be such that the time to full braking power is significant. Fortunately brakes are fairly straightforward and getting them back to good performance usually isn't a complex or expensive process.
  - conk 3y ago
    Hybrids and EVs can also stop (to some extent) with regenerative braking.
  - snovv_crash 3y ago
    That's not true, even in hard braking a large fraction of the kinetic energy is converted back via regen braking.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    "and our ability to stop vehicles quickly still relies on creating heat using friction; it has not progressed nearly as quickly as our ability to accelerate vehicles." We've had a lot of innovation in braking - including better tire compounds, disc brakes, anti lock, better brake compounds and design, etc. Most people just don't talk about them or compare braking stats.
    - falcolas 3y ago
      There have been some advances (fewer in recent years, most of the technologies you've listed are decades old), but braking distances for consumer vehicles is still in the 130' range at 60 mph. This is better than the 200' from a decade ago, but still significant. Consumer vehicles now able to accelerate to 60 mph in 2 seconds, but it can still take them up to 3 seconds to get back to 0. Note: These are based on a safety article from Edmonds, 'Keep your Distance', who uses a distance of 132' with a braking time of 3.1 seconds. They appear to be measuring a car at the lighter end of the spectrum, as other articles I found still refer to 200'+ at the heavy end of the spectrum.
      - giantg2 3y ago
        Many of the technologies I've listed are continually improved. They're not just a once and done, especially for things like compounds. Average braking distances for any passenger vehicle class isn't even close to 200 feet, not even for pickup trucks. https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-safety/best-and-worst-braking-distances-a2960086475/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-safety/best-and-wor... Many of the fastest cars also have the best brakes. There are a number of them that can even get under 100'. https://www.motortrend.com/features/20-best-60-to-0-distances-recorded/ https://www.motortrend.com/features/20-best-60-to-0-distance... If we want to talk trends in poor braking, we can look at Tesla and EVs in general. In many cases EVs select low rolling resistance tires with poor performance. The top quality low rolling resistance tires can be good, but many EVs have tight margins and lower end tires with less grip. It's not just weight. You can compare similar weight vehicles like a Tesla and a Silverado, and the conventional vehicle generally brakes better.
tyleo 3y ago
It does seem a bit propaganda but I think it highlights a larger issue and doesn’t go far enough! So many cars are so much bigger now. The entire guard rail system probably needs to be reexamined in the face of new vehicle sizes.
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  Or maybe cars for commuting shouldn't be 7,500 lb?
  - ponector 3y ago
    In Europe car over 3500kg requires another driver's license class. It is not a car, it is a lorry!
    - deaddodo 3y ago
      3500kg translates to ~7716lbs, so their comment (and the Rivian covered by this topic) still applies within your confines.
      - rsynnott 3y ago
        It's 3500kg including payload, so the car in question would be essentially unusable under the rule.
  - colechristensen 3y ago
    Or more simply just taxed like commercial vehicles. Make the tabs cost $1000 per year for anything with weight or height exceeding some limit.
    - brucethemoose2 3y ago
      Yeah, this is what I meant. Slap taxes above a certain weight, and you will see manufacturers drop the weight to right below the threshold faster than you can blink.
CharlesW 3y ago
> This is all about the weight of the vehicle, it has nothing to do with the fuel. It does in the sense that an EV weighs 50% more than its ICE comparable. (For example, the Volvo XC40 ICE is 1,690 p̶o̶u̶n̶d̶s̶ kg, while the XC40 Recharge is 2,520 kb with battery modules.)
- Kirby64 3y ago
  You should double check those numbers. The XC40 combustion car is 3800-3950 lbs. The EV version is 4600-4800 lbs. 20% more, which is certainly something but not nearly 50%. Comparable cars in the sedan category are only typically 10-20% more than their combustion counterparts, unless they’re just designed poorly.
  - CharlesW 3y ago
    Thanks, I corrected the units in the post above. Source: https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/-/media/applications/pdpspecificationpage/my24/xc40-electric/pdp/volvo-cars-lca-report-xc40.pdf https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/-/media/applications/pdps..., page 12.
    - Kirby64 3y ago
      Page 12 says 2170kg for the EV version. Not 25xx.
      - CharlesW 3y ago
        I added the weight of the battery modules (listed on the same line) because https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/models/xc40-recharge/2023/specifications https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/models/xc40-rec... lists Total Weight as 2480 kg (so within 40 kg).
        Kirby64 3y ago
        That total weight is the GVWR number, which is intended to be the maximum design weight, beyond which the manufacturer will tell you you’ve overloaded the vehicle. It’s not the actual weight of the car.
hnav 3y ago
The Rivian's _curb_ weight is 7k. Not that the Escalade is light, but in its diesel, long wheel-base version it's 6.2k.
giantg2 3y ago
"This is all about the weight of the vehicle, it has nothing to do with the fuel." It's not all weight, but also energy and density. It's slightly related to fuel, at least until batteries get significantly lighter. Gross weights are misleading in this conversation because most passenger vehicles are not driving nor tested at their gross, but only slightly above curb weight.

by johnea 3y ago

tptacek 3y ago

It's worth noting that EVs aren't the only vehicles that crest the 5,000-pound mark. Any full-sized, heavy-duty pickup on the market will easily surpass 6,000 pounds, with some like the Ford F-350 and Silverado HD 2500 even exceeding 7,000 pounds. Even the Chevy Suburban, a fairly common vehicle for families, can tip the scales at over 6,000 pounds depending on its powertrain. But EVs are universally heavier than gas cars of equal dimensions thanks to their batteries, and many of them are already beyond the limit.

falcolas 3y ago
> But EVs are universally heavier than gas cars of equal dimensions thanks to their batteries, and many of them are already beyond the limit. And this definitely matters. The energy required to stop a vehicle is a linear correlation to the mass, and our ability to stop vehicles quickly still relies on creating heat using friction; it has not progressed nearly as quickly as our ability to accelerate vehicles.
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  Even a junker can lock its wheels under hard braking, right? AFAIK the limiting factors are tire grip, ABS control and of course mass.
  - MadnessASAP 3y ago
    I wouldn't assume that. I've definitely been in a few junkers that couldn't do it on warm, clean, and dry pavement. Although you've already got pretty good braking performance in those conditions anyways. Even then though, the travel of the brake pedal may be such that the time to full braking power is significant. Fortunately brakes are fairly straightforward and getting them back to good performance usually isn't a complex or expensive process.
- conk 3y ago
  Hybrids and EVs can also stop (to some extent) with regenerative braking.
- snovv_crash 3y ago
  That's not true, even in hard braking a large fraction of the kinetic energy is converted back via regen braking.
- giantg2 3y ago
  "and our ability to stop vehicles quickly still relies on creating heat using friction; it has not progressed nearly as quickly as our ability to accelerate vehicles." We've had a lot of innovation in braking - including better tire compounds, disc brakes, anti lock, better brake compounds and design, etc. Most people just don't talk about them or compare braking stats.
  - falcolas 3y ago
    There have been some advances (fewer in recent years, most of the technologies you've listed are decades old), but braking distances for consumer vehicles is still in the 130' range at 60 mph. This is better than the 200' from a decade ago, but still significant. Consumer vehicles now able to accelerate to 60 mph in 2 seconds, but it can still take them up to 3 seconds to get back to 0. Note: These are based on a safety article from Edmonds, 'Keep your Distance', who uses a distance of 132' with a braking time of 3.1 seconds. They appear to be measuring a car at the lighter end of the spectrum, as other articles I found still refer to 200'+ at the heavy end of the spectrum.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      Many of the technologies I've listed are continually improved. They're not just a once and done, especially for things like compounds. Average braking distances for any passenger vehicle class isn't even close to 200 feet, not even for pickup trucks. https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-safety/best-and-worst-braking-distances-a2960086475/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-safety/best-and-wor... Many of the fastest cars also have the best brakes. There are a number of them that can even get under 100'. https://www.motortrend.com/features/20-best-60-to-0-distances-recorded/ https://www.motortrend.com/features/20-best-60-to-0-distance... If we want to talk trends in poor braking, we can look at Tesla and EVs in general. In many cases EVs select low rolling resistance tires with poor performance. The top quality low rolling resistance tires can be good, but many EVs have tight margins and lower end tires with less grip. It's not just weight. You can compare similar weight vehicles like a Tesla and a Silverado, and the conventional vehicle generally brakes better.

tyleo 3y ago

It does seem a bit propaganda but I think it highlights a larger issue and doesn’t go far enough! So many cars are so much bigger now. The entire guard rail system probably needs to be reexamined in the face of new vehicle sizes.

brucethemoose2 3y ago
Or maybe cars for commuting shouldn't be 7,500 lb?
- ponector 3y ago
  In Europe car over 3500kg requires another driver's license class. It is not a car, it is a lorry!
  - deaddodo 3y ago
    3500kg translates to ~7716lbs, so their comment (and the Rivian covered by this topic) still applies within your confines.
    - rsynnott 3y ago
      It's 3500kg including payload, so the car in question would be essentially unusable under the rule.
- colechristensen 3y ago
  Or more simply just taxed like commercial vehicles. Make the tabs cost $1000 per year for anything with weight or height exceeding some limit.
  - brucethemoose2 3y ago
    Yeah, this is what I meant. Slap taxes above a certain weight, and you will see manufacturers drop the weight to right below the threshold faster than you can blink.

CharlesW 3y ago

> This is all about the weight of the vehicle, it has nothing to do with the fuel. It does in the sense that an EV weighs 50% more than its ICE comparable. (For example, the Volvo XC40 ICE is 1,690 p̶o̶u̶n̶d̶s̶ kg, while the XC40 Recharge is 2,520 kb with battery modules.)

Kirby64 3y ago
You should double check those numbers. The XC40 combustion car is 3800-3950 lbs. The EV version is 4600-4800 lbs. 20% more, which is certainly something but not nearly 50%. Comparable cars in the sedan category are only typically 10-20% more than their combustion counterparts, unless they’re just designed poorly.
- CharlesW 3y ago
  Thanks, I corrected the units in the post above. Source: https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/-/media/applications/pdpspecificationpage/my24/xc40-electric/pdp/volvo-cars-lca-report-xc40.pdf https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/-/media/applications/pdps..., page 12.
  - Kirby64 3y ago
    Page 12 says 2170kg for the EV version. Not 25xx.
    - CharlesW 3y ago
      I added the weight of the battery modules (listed on the same line) because https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/models/xc40-recharge/2023/specifications https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/models/xc40-rec... lists Total Weight as 2480 kg (so within 40 kg).
      - Kirby64 3y ago
        That total weight is the GVWR number, which is intended to be the maximum design weight, beyond which the manufacturer will tell you you’ve overloaded the vehicle. It’s not the actual weight of the car.

hnav 3y ago

The Rivian's _curb_ weight is 7k. Not that the Escalade is light, but in its diesel, long wheel-base version it's 6.2k.

giantg2 3y ago

"This is all about the weight of the vehicle, it has nothing to do with the fuel." It's not all weight, but also energy and density. It's slightly related to fuel, at least until batteries get significantly lighter. Gross weights are misleading in this conversation because most passenger vehicles are not driving nor tested at their gross, but only slightly above curb weight.