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> it never ceases to surprise me how often developer complaints stem from developers just not doing their damn job. One thing I learned is that any forum that

> it never ceases to surprise me how often developer complaints stem from developers just not doing their damn job. One thing I learned is that any forum that appeals to software engineers will appeal to software engineers of all skill levels, from the guy that did a 6 week coding camp because he heard SWEs make a lot of money but didn't really learn anything but thinks he's an expert now, to geniuses with 10+ years experience. For every comment from someone who really knows what they're doing, there's one from someone that really doesn't.

josephg 3y ago
Yep. This is one of the big problems with online communities. When someone makes a bold statement, I have no idea if they’re a grizzled engineer with grizzled, hard earned engineering opinions, or some kid fresh out of a coding bootcamp who thinks they’re all that. In person, I’d treat those two people incredibly differently. Online? It’s impossible to spot the difference. It doesn’t help that we all think of ourselves as programmers, even though people in our industry have a wide range of jobs. Someone working at a feature factory banging out websites and mobile apps has a very different job from someone slowly puzzling out a new cryptography algorithm or debugging a kernel driver. You can tell they’re different jobs because excelling in those roles takes different skills. In the first case, you want to know your domain backwards, have great social skills and work consistently. In the later cases, you need deep CS knowledge, patience and insight. It’s different. Who is this site for? What does everyone do for your job? It’s all quite unclear.
- teaearlgraycold 3y ago
  Once I started interviewing - mind you, interviewing candidates that already got through several filters before getting in front of me - I realized how mediocre the average engineer is. Should it then follow that the average engineering opinion online is mediocre?
  - arccy 3y ago
    pretty much yes, even here you see a lot of overconfidently mediocre takes
    - teaearlgraycold 3y ago
      It’s important to know how to stick to your course in the face of bad advice.
- JadeNB 3y ago
  > Yep. This is one of the big problems with online communities. When someone makes a bold statement, I have no idea if they’re a grizzled engineer with grizzled, hard earned engineering opinions, or some kid fresh out of a coding bootcamp who thinks they’re all that. In person, I’d treat those two people incredibly differently. Online? It’s impossible to spot the difference. I know there are limits to this, but isn't that a good thing, too? It's all too easy to treat a newbie as if they can't possibly have useful things to offer to the community; being forced to treat all comments equally, without being able to fall back on the crutch of reputation, arguably forces one to read and engage more deeply with the content, and offers the chance to surface the occasional genuinely valuable contribution from a newbie (or, for that matter, to avoid letting someone get away with an ill considered or overbroad statement just because they have such a big reputation that people are too afraid to stand up to them).
  - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
    True, but occasionally a newbie offers a solution to a problem and rejects the rejection when people try to tell them why their solution won't work. For example, several years ago here on HN, during a thread about cryptography, someone admitted to not knowing much about cryptography, but offered one-time pads as a solution to the weaknesses of PKI. I tried to tell them that OTP solve a different problem that is unrelated to PKI, but they wanted nothing of it. They claimed that my response was purely emotional and that just because I knew more than them about cryptography doesn't automatically make them wrong. When I tried the Socratic Method to lead them towards an understanding of why they were wrong, they accused me of being condescending and said that I should answer my own questions. If I see a bold claim that I have a hard time believing, then I'll ask follow-up questions. But when someone makes a bold claim that is just factually incorrect, while admitting they don't know much, and then get upset when someone tells them why it's incorrect, then that's just plain frustrating.
    - JadeNB 3y ago
      > If I see a bold claim that I have a hard time believing, then I'll ask follow-up questions. But when someone makes a bold claim that is just factually incorrect, while admitting they don't know much, and then get upset when someone tells them why it's incorrect, then that's just plain frustrating. But that doesn't seem a situation that would have been addressed by fixing the problem that you originally identified: > Yep. This is one of the big problems with online communities. When someone makes a bold statement, I have no idea if they’re a grizzled engineer with grizzled, hard earned engineering opinions, or some kid fresh out of a coding bootcamp who thinks they’re all that. In person, I’d treat those two people incredibly differently. Online? It’s impossible to spot the difference. Here, it sounds like you knew on which side of the divide a person fell. The resulting problem is still a problem, but it's one that also occurs offline!

josephg 3y ago

Yep. This is one of the big problems with online communities. When someone makes a bold statement, I have no idea if they’re a grizzled engineer with grizzled, hard earned engineering opinions, or some kid fresh out of a coding bootcamp who thinks they’re all that. In person, I’d treat those two people incredibly differently. Online? It’s impossible to spot the difference. It doesn’t help that we all think of ourselves as programmers, even though people in our industry have a wide range of jobs. Someone working at a feature factory banging out websites and mobile apps has a very different job from someone slowly puzzling out a new cryptography algorithm or debugging a kernel driver. You can tell they’re different jobs because excelling in those roles takes different skills. In the first case, you want to know your domain backwards, have great social skills and work consistently. In the later cases, you need deep CS knowledge, patience and insight. It’s different. Who is this site for? What does everyone do for your job? It’s all quite unclear.

teaearlgraycold 3y ago
Once I started interviewing - mind you, interviewing candidates that already got through several filters before getting in front of me - I realized how mediocre the average engineer is. Should it then follow that the average engineering opinion online is mediocre?
- arccy 3y ago
  pretty much yes, even here you see a lot of overconfidently mediocre takes
  - teaearlgraycold 3y ago
    It’s important to know how to stick to your course in the face of bad advice.
JadeNB 3y ago
> Yep. This is one of the big problems with online communities. When someone makes a bold statement, I have no idea if they’re a grizzled engineer with grizzled, hard earned engineering opinions, or some kid fresh out of a coding bootcamp who thinks they’re all that. In person, I’d treat those two people incredibly differently. Online? It’s impossible to spot the difference. I know there are limits to this, but isn't that a good thing, too? It's all too easy to treat a newbie as if they can't possibly have useful things to offer to the community; being forced to treat all comments equally, without being able to fall back on the crutch of reputation, arguably forces one to read and engage more deeply with the content, and offers the chance to surface the occasional genuinely valuable contribution from a newbie (or, for that matter, to avoid letting someone get away with an ill considered or overbroad statement just because they have such a big reputation that people are too afraid to stand up to them).
- Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
  True, but occasionally a newbie offers a solution to a problem and rejects the rejection when people try to tell them why their solution won't work. For example, several years ago here on HN, during a thread about cryptography, someone admitted to not knowing much about cryptography, but offered one-time pads as a solution to the weaknesses of PKI. I tried to tell them that OTP solve a different problem that is unrelated to PKI, but they wanted nothing of it. They claimed that my response was purely emotional and that just because I knew more than them about cryptography doesn't automatically make them wrong. When I tried the Socratic Method to lead them towards an understanding of why they were wrong, they accused me of being condescending and said that I should answer my own questions. If I see a bold claim that I have a hard time believing, then I'll ask follow-up questions. But when someone makes a bold claim that is just factually incorrect, while admitting they don't know much, and then get upset when someone tells them why it's incorrect, then that's just plain frustrating.
  - JadeNB 3y ago
    > If I see a bold claim that I have a hard time believing, then I'll ask follow-up questions. But when someone makes a bold claim that is just factually incorrect, while admitting they don't know much, and then get upset when someone tells them why it's incorrect, then that's just plain frustrating. But that doesn't seem a situation that would have been addressed by fixing the problem that you originally identified: > Yep. This is one of the big problems with online communities. When someone makes a bold statement, I have no idea if they’re a grizzled engineer with grizzled, hard earned engineering opinions, or some kid fresh out of a coding bootcamp who thinks they’re all that. In person, I’d treat those two people incredibly differently. Online? It’s impossible to spot the difference. Here, it sounds like you knew on which side of the divide a person fell. The resulting problem is still a problem, but it's one that also occurs offline!