4 ms·

Windows 10 users report app problems after Microsoft update

31 points by DaveFlater 3y ago

tux3 3y ago
tl;dr: SSE4.2 is required now. No runtime detection, no software trapping/emulation. Hard crash for very old hardware.
- 1970-01-01 3y ago
  If you read the thread, this is a "Microsoft App" issue. The core OS remains functional. You can still play games, surf the Web, and run 3rd party software. Very embarrassing for MS, and it tracks with their ready, fire, aim QA process.
  - tux3 3y ago
    I think the current QA process is a deliberate outcome. If you invest drastically less in testing and mark some hardware configs as unsupported, eventually these hardware configs break. Like with anything, lack of care leads to degradation. The core functions remain for a while, but without support it's clear where this leads. Microsoft has no reason to be embarrassed or surprised, they chose the circumstances that made this happen!
throwaway918274 3y ago
Oh, for f*cks sake. That's it. Was hoping I could ride out staying on Windows 10 until it support was cut off. Enough is enough, I'm wiping Windows tonight and only single booting Ubuntu. Steam library be damned, whatever works on Proton works on Proton. I'm buying a Steam Deck.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- dimgl 3y ago
  The Steam Deck OLED is absolutely fantastic. But yeah I'm almost at that point too. Windows is abysmal.
- pathartl 3y ago
  Seems like an overreaction to this bug.
  - taftster 3y ago
    More like a build up to this bug. The proverbial straw on the camel's back, kind of thing.
    - pathartl 3y ago
      I would question how many people this actually affects, but who knows, I'm also in the "Just use Windows 11" camp.
      - throwaway918274 3y ago
        It's the principle and this isn't the first thing that pissed me off. Microsoft will break your PC with a software update and they do not give a single damn - "just buy a new PC". How about f*ck you?! Why should I give my business to a company that so clearly has disdain for their customers.
        pathartl 3y ago
        Yeah they don't give a single damn. They certainly won't release a fix for this.
AdmiralAsshat 3y ago
So much for that break-your-back compatibility.
DaveFlater 3y ago
SSE 4.2 appeared in Nehalem, which was 2008.
ack_complete 3y ago
Possibly due to: https://developercommunity.visualstudio.com/t/Illegal-Instruction-SSE-42-POPCNT-exc/10520578 https://developercommunity.visualstudio.com/t/Illegal-Instru... tl;dr is that an SSE4.2 instruction was introduced into an optional but commonly used runtime library that ships with the Visual C++ compiler. There's no runtime checking for whether the CPU supports this instruction, so it crashes on older CPUs.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
coldcode 3y ago
No one tests their apps on declared unsupported hardware. How would you identify potential unsupported-but-might-work hardware? It's not worth the cost. Still, it sounds like someone simply screwed up a compiler setting.
- cptskippy 3y ago
  > Still, it sounds like someone simply screwed up a compiler setting. A screw up would imply they hadn't intended to make the change. It could just have easily been someone trying to improve performance or security by optimizing for supported platforms while not knowing that a lot of unsupported platforms would run the code or be impacted. If the change doesn't negatively impact stated supported platforms then it wasn't a mistake imo and I don't think they should revert it. A lot of security issues exist because we continue to support legacy systems that cannot be secured or not without negatively impacting performance. If MS pushed a security patch that gobbled 5-10% performance from decade old systems some people would lose their minds. Remember how painful the switch from XP was? And from Win7? And now Win10? Some people just refuse to upgrade hardware or software until forced and will bitch piss and moan the entire time.
  - ack_complete 3y ago
    Calling these processors unsupported for Windows 10 is dubious. The official minimum CPU specification for Windows 10 only mentions PAX, NX, SSE2, CMPXCHG16B, LAHF/SAHF, and PREFETCHW, not SSE4: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/minimum-hardware-requirements-overview https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/mi... There is a more general Windows Processor Requirements doc that does drop a number of old CPUs off of the list for newer builds: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/windows-processor-requirements https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/mi... However, this is not surfaced to the user nor are there compatibility blocks to prevent auto-upgrades to newer builds, and the page specifically says this: > Changes to the processors listed do not indicate or impact a customer’s existing Windows support and are intended for OEMs to determine processors which may be used in new Windows devices. If Microsoft wants to raise the minspec to maintain a reasonable support window, more power to them. I can't see how apps suddenly crashing is a good way to do this. It has to be an unintentional bug.
BillSims 3y ago
Is there any chance someone at Microsoft is going to insert a CPU compatibility check before bug-patch-Tuesday force installs these on millions of machines? WindowsReport.com cautions about KB5034203 on older CPUS and I have some older machines currently showing "Optional quality update available 2024-01 Cumulative Update Preview for Windows 10 Version 22H2 for x86-based Systems (KB5034203)" I wouldn't be surprised if those are no longer optional come Tuesday.

31 points by DaveFlater 3y ago

tux3 3y ago

tl;dr: SSE4.2 is required now. No runtime detection, no software trapping/emulation. Hard crash for very old hardware.

1970-01-01 3y ago
If you read the thread, this is a "Microsoft App" issue. The core OS remains functional. You can still play games, surf the Web, and run 3rd party software. Very embarrassing for MS, and it tracks with their ready, fire, aim QA process.
- tux3 3y ago
  I think the current QA process is a deliberate outcome. If you invest drastically less in testing and mark some hardware configs as unsupported, eventually these hardware configs break. Like with anything, lack of care leads to degradation. The core functions remain for a while, but without support it's clear where this leads. Microsoft has no reason to be embarrassed or surprised, they chose the circumstances that made this happen!

throwaway918274 3y ago

Oh, for f*cks sake. That's it. Was hoping I could ride out staying on Windows 10 until it support was cut off. Enough is enough, I'm wiping Windows tonight and only single booting Ubuntu. Steam library be damned, whatever works on Proton works on Proton. I'm buying a Steam Deck.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dimgl 3y ago
The Steam Deck OLED is absolutely fantastic. But yeah I'm almost at that point too. Windows is abysmal.
pathartl 3y ago
Seems like an overreaction to this bug.
- taftster 3y ago
  More like a build up to this bug. The proverbial straw on the camel's back, kind of thing.
  - pathartl 3y ago
    I would question how many people this actually affects, but who knows, I'm also in the "Just use Windows 11" camp.
    - throwaway918274 3y ago
      It's the principle and this isn't the first thing that pissed me off. Microsoft will break your PC with a software update and they do not give a single damn - "just buy a new PC". How about f*ck you?! Why should I give my business to a company that so clearly has disdain for their customers.
      - pathartl 3y ago
        Yeah they don't give a single damn. They certainly won't release a fix for this.

AdmiralAsshat 3y ago

So much for that break-your-back compatibility.

DaveFlater 3y ago

SSE 4.2 appeared in Nehalem, which was 2008.

ack_complete 3y ago

Possibly due to: https://developercommunity.visualstudio.com/t/Illegal-Instruction-SSE-42-POPCNT-exc/10520578 https://developercommunity.visualstudio.com/t/Illegal-Instru... tl;dr is that an SSE4.2 instruction was introduced into an optional but commonly used runtime library that ships with the Visual C++ compiler. There's no runtime checking for whether the CPU supports this instruction, so it crashes on older CPUs.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

coldcode 3y ago

No one tests their apps on declared unsupported hardware. How would you identify potential unsupported-but-might-work hardware? It's not worth the cost. Still, it sounds like someone simply screwed up a compiler setting.

cptskippy 3y ago
> Still, it sounds like someone simply screwed up a compiler setting. A screw up would imply they hadn't intended to make the change. It could just have easily been someone trying to improve performance or security by optimizing for supported platforms while not knowing that a lot of unsupported platforms would run the code or be impacted. If the change doesn't negatively impact stated supported platforms then it wasn't a mistake imo and I don't think they should revert it. A lot of security issues exist because we continue to support legacy systems that cannot be secured or not without negatively impacting performance. If MS pushed a security patch that gobbled 5-10% performance from decade old systems some people would lose their minds. Remember how painful the switch from XP was? And from Win7? And now Win10? Some people just refuse to upgrade hardware or software until forced and will bitch piss and moan the entire time.
- ack_complete 3y ago
  Calling these processors unsupported for Windows 10 is dubious. The official minimum CPU specification for Windows 10 only mentions PAX, NX, SSE2, CMPXCHG16B, LAHF/SAHF, and PREFETCHW, not SSE4: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/minimum-hardware-requirements-overview https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/mi... There is a more general Windows Processor Requirements doc that does drop a number of old CPUs off of the list for newer builds: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/windows-processor-requirements https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/mi... However, this is not surfaced to the user nor are there compatibility blocks to prevent auto-upgrades to newer builds, and the page specifically says this: > Changes to the processors listed do not indicate or impact a customer’s existing Windows support and are intended for OEMs to determine processors which may be used in new Windows devices. If Microsoft wants to raise the minspec to maintain a reasonable support window, more power to them. I can't see how apps suddenly crashing is a good way to do this. It has to be an unintentional bug.

BillSims 3y ago

Is there any chance someone at Microsoft is going to insert a CPU compatibility check before bug-patch-Tuesday force installs these on millions of machines? WindowsReport.com cautions about KB5034203 on older CPUS and I have some older machines currently showing "Optional quality update available 2024-01 Cumulative Update Preview for Windows 10 Version 22H2 for x86-based Systems (KB5034203)" I wouldn't be surprised if those are no longer optional come Tuesday.