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I find child pornography abhorrent. But AI child pornography could actually help reduce child abuse - some abusers might get their fix from these images instead

I find child pornography abhorrent. But AI child pornography could actually help reduce child abuse - some abusers might get their fix from these images instead of needing actual children. This would be similar to the (yet unproven) claim that widespread access to porn has reduced physical sexual activity in general.

jdiff 3y ago
People have been saying that for decades before generative AI was a glimmer in anyone's eyes. Even the story we're commenting is of someone who was doing both. It's time to retire that tired theory.
- ben_w 3y ago
  As with all interventions, it is a claim that can only be tested by comparing abuse rates in two otherwise very similar jurisdictions, where the only difference is the availability of such material. To think otherwise is to presume that all members of the target group are identical, which is implausible. Even attempting to run such a pure observational study of such a situation would be denounced, even if the researchers had no power to alter the laws. If you did somehow manage to run such a study, I expect you'd find three things: (1) plenty of examples of people who were inspired to act due to the images they saw, (2) plenty of examples of people who used the images as a way out, (3) that there are way more abusers and victims than most people realise.
- oatmeal1 3y ago
  What you're saying is the market-share of the AI version that does not involve additional exploitation of minors in its creation is going up over time. The evidence is increasing that the theory is right. If the AI version gets good enough, the supply of a substitute will real CP will go up, the price of real CP will go down, meaning there is less incentive to exploit real children.
  - jdiff 3y ago
    That's assuming a lot of things that are shockingly poor choices to assume. Like that the only reason children are exploited is for photographs.
    - oatmeal1 3y ago
      > Like that the only reason children are exploited is for photographs. The unreasonable assumptions you assert I'm making are of your own imagination.
      - jdiff 3y ago
        Your argument is built on assertions and assumptions that do not stand up to reality. It's not my imagination, its your own words. AI will do nothing to demand for CSAM because the premise is faulty.
xorcist 3y ago
If there's anything to learn from history, it's that desensitizing people isn't a good thing. Much like heroin wasn't a great way to get people off morphine.
- spacebanana7 3y ago
  In the 80s & 90s, many people feared that violence in video games, movies & music would desensitise young people to violence and lead to an increase in crime. But the exact opposite happened. The generation who murdered and robbed their way through the streets of San Andreas committed much less IRL crime than their parents generation.
  - mdhb 3y ago
    I can think of a few meaningful differences between GTA and CSAM and a few key differences in policing since then.
- oatmeal1 3y ago
  Who are you seeing as being desensitized in this scenario? People searching the net for CP are already desensitized.
runiq 3y ago
While I agree in principle, it turns out that real CSAM may be used during the training phase and that obviously has to be prosecuted.
willcipriano 3y ago
It turns out that for some people porn is a gateway drug to child abuse. They get hooked and start looking for more and more extreme content, eventually that escalation has them watching child abuse material, then then go from that to the real thing. It might be why pedophilia seems to be more and more common post internet. If all you have is Hustler magazine you can't escalate to children.
- mcphage 3y ago
  > It might be why pedophilia seems to be more and more common post internet. I suspect (admittedly without evidence) that it's not more common—it's just more socially unacceptable, and also easier to get caught.
- ben_w 3y ago
  The age of consent in the UK was 12 between 1275 and 1875, so I suspect "seems" doesn't map to "is". And I vaguely remember an 80s or 90s survey which said something like 1 in 6 American women were victimised as minors.
ceejayoz 3y ago
Serial killers and serial rapists tend to show a pattern of escalation, in both significance and frequency of the crime. I would not be shocked if crimes against children of this nature do as well.
- guappa 3y ago
  I think most killers aren't serial killers though.
vabyta77 3y ago
In Russia and Ukraine, simple possession of child pornography is not even illegal. Yet they still are the 2nd and 3rd top CSAM producing countries respectively...

jdiff 3y ago

People have been saying that for decades before generative AI was a glimmer in anyone's eyes. Even the story we're commenting is of someone who was doing both. It's time to retire that tired theory.

ben_w 3y ago
As with all interventions, it is a claim that can only be tested by comparing abuse rates in two otherwise very similar jurisdictions, where the only difference is the availability of such material. To think otherwise is to presume that all members of the target group are identical, which is implausible. Even attempting to run such a pure observational study of such a situation would be denounced, even if the researchers had no power to alter the laws. If you did somehow manage to run such a study, I expect you'd find three things: (1) plenty of examples of people who were inspired to act due to the images they saw, (2) plenty of examples of people who used the images as a way out, (3) that there are way more abusers and victims than most people realise.
oatmeal1 3y ago
What you're saying is the market-share of the AI version that does not involve additional exploitation of minors in its creation is going up over time. The evidence is increasing that the theory is right. If the AI version gets good enough, the supply of a substitute will real CP will go up, the price of real CP will go down, meaning there is less incentive to exploit real children.
- jdiff 3y ago
  That's assuming a lot of things that are shockingly poor choices to assume. Like that the only reason children are exploited is for photographs.
  - oatmeal1 3y ago
    > Like that the only reason children are exploited is for photographs. The unreasonable assumptions you assert I'm making are of your own imagination.
    - jdiff 3y ago
      Your argument is built on assertions and assumptions that do not stand up to reality. It's not my imagination, its your own words. AI will do nothing to demand for CSAM because the premise is faulty.

xorcist 3y ago

If there's anything to learn from history, it's that desensitizing people isn't a good thing. Much like heroin wasn't a great way to get people off morphine.

spacebanana7 3y ago
In the 80s & 90s, many people feared that violence in video games, movies & music would desensitise young people to violence and lead to an increase in crime. But the exact opposite happened. The generation who murdered and robbed their way through the streets of San Andreas committed much less IRL crime than their parents generation.
- mdhb 3y ago
  I can think of a few meaningful differences between GTA and CSAM and a few key differences in policing since then.
oatmeal1 3y ago
Who are you seeing as being desensitized in this scenario? People searching the net for CP are already desensitized.

runiq 3y ago

While I agree in principle, it turns out that real CSAM may be used during the training phase and that obviously has to be prosecuted.

willcipriano 3y ago

It turns out that for some people porn is a gateway drug to child abuse. They get hooked and start looking for more and more extreme content, eventually that escalation has them watching child abuse material, then then go from that to the real thing. It might be why pedophilia seems to be more and more common post internet. If all you have is Hustler magazine you can't escalate to children.

mcphage 3y ago
> It might be why pedophilia seems to be more and more common post internet. I suspect (admittedly without evidence) that it's not more common—it's just more socially unacceptable, and also easier to get caught.
ben_w 3y ago
The age of consent in the UK was 12 between 1275 and 1875, so I suspect "seems" doesn't map to "is". And I vaguely remember an 80s or 90s survey which said something like 1 in 6 American women were victimised as minors.

ceejayoz 3y ago

Serial killers and serial rapists tend to show a pattern of escalation, in both significance and frequency of the crime. I would not be shocked if crimes against children of this nature do as well.

guappa 3y ago
I think most killers aren't serial killers though.

vabyta77 3y ago

In Russia and Ukraine, simple possession of child pornography is not even illegal. Yet they still are the 2nd and 3rd top CSAM producing countries respectively...