3 ms·

The Netherlands already voted for a Eurosceptic, invoking similar rhetoric as you here - "replacement" of locals by foreigners, taking their jobs, etc. Interest

by epups 3y ago

The Netherlands already voted for a Eurosceptic, invoking similar rhetoric as you here - "replacement" of locals by foreigners, taking their jobs, etc. Interestingly, as is almost always the case in Europe, the places with fewer immigrants voted more harshly against them. The question we should ask is whether this is rational or not. I think not. If the Dutch want to vote themselves into a Brexit, then so be it - the foreigners will go elsewhere, trade barriers will be erected to "protect" the local economy, and time will tell who will be ahead economically and culturally.

logifail 3y ago
> as is almost always the case [..] the places with fewer immigrants voted more harshly against them Well, the very opposite of that happened in the UK regarding the Brexit referendum: "More than 50 per cent of the population growth in Lincolnshire in the last decade has been caused by immigration. Across the county, population growth has been 57,999, with 30,568 due to immigration - a total of 52.7 per cent." https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/local-news/new-figures-reveal-scale-immigration-234298 https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/local-news/new-figur... "More than three quarters of the people of Boston, in the county of Lincolnshire in the East Midlands of England, voted to leave the EU. According to the most recent U.K. census in 2011, Boston also has the highest proportion of eastern European immigrants of anywhere in the U.K., after an influx of EU workers to the area’s agricultural sector, earning it the label of Britain’s “most divided town.” Between 2004 and 2014, the town’s migrant population grew by 460%, and the proportion of residents of the Borough of Boston born in EU accession countries such as Lithuania, Poland and Latvia, stands at around 12%." https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/28/in-boston-britains-most-pro-brexit-town-voters-are-fed-up.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/28/in-boston-britains-most-pro-... > The question we should ask is whether this is rational or not. To vote a particular way in the hope of change? Why wouldn't that be rational?
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Hope of change isn't rational because it more than likely will be change for the worse, not change for the better. The idea that a demagogue is going to come along and as a strong man solve all of your problems is infantile at best and irresponsible at worst. Those that vote in wannabe dictators will get exactly what they deserve.
- epups 3y ago
  The main issue with populism and why people fall for it is a reliance on narratives over facts. If we discuss consolidated data instead of an anecdote, the conclusion is quite clear, and it shows that you are wrong: https://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-areas-with-low-immigration-voted-mainly-for-brexit-62138 https://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-areas-with-low... > To vote a particular way in the hope of change? Why wouldn't that be rational? There are plenty of historical examples of people voting for "change" that ended up backfiring wildly. I think you could find quite a few of those in the same ideological spectrum of people like Wilders.
jacquesm 3y ago
> If the Dutch want to vote themselves into a Brexit, then so be it - the foreigners will go elsewhere, trade barriers will be erected to "protect" the local economy, and time will tell who will be ahead economically and culturally. And plenty of locals will go elsewhere too. I for one. The morons that effected Brexit should be enough of an example that any other EU country that wants to go the same route has been amply warned about what that will do your country. It's amazing that so many people are utterly blind but then again, live long enough and nothing really surprises you any more.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  Exactly where would you go? It's not like there's a lot of nice, developed nations on par with Netherlands that you can just pick up and move to. Perhaps some other EU nations, but many of those are electing similar people lately.

by epups 3y ago

logifail 3y ago

> as is almost always the case [..] the places with fewer immigrants voted more harshly against them Well, the very opposite of that happened in the UK regarding the Brexit referendum: "More than 50 per cent of the population growth in Lincolnshire in the last decade has been caused by immigration. Across the county, population growth has been 57,999, with 30,568 due to immigration - a total of 52.7 per cent." https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/local-news/new-figures-reveal-scale-immigration-234298 https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/local-news/new-figur... "More than three quarters of the people of Boston, in the county of Lincolnshire in the East Midlands of England, voted to leave the EU. According to the most recent U.K. census in 2011, Boston also has the highest proportion of eastern European immigrants of anywhere in the U.K., after an influx of EU workers to the area’s agricultural sector, earning it the label of Britain’s “most divided town.” Between 2004 and 2014, the town’s migrant population grew by 460%, and the proportion of residents of the Borough of Boston born in EU accession countries such as Lithuania, Poland and Latvia, stands at around 12%." https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/28/in-boston-britains-most-pro-brexit-town-voters-are-fed-up.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/28/in-boston-britains-most-pro-... > The question we should ask is whether this is rational or not. To vote a particular way in the hope of change? Why wouldn't that be rational?

jacquesm 3y ago
Hope of change isn't rational because it more than likely will be change for the worse, not change for the better. The idea that a demagogue is going to come along and as a strong man solve all of your problems is infantile at best and irresponsible at worst. Those that vote in wannabe dictators will get exactly what they deserve.
epups 3y ago
The main issue with populism and why people fall for it is a reliance on narratives over facts. If we discuss consolidated data instead of an anecdote, the conclusion is quite clear, and it shows that you are wrong: https://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-areas-with-low-immigration-voted-mainly-for-brexit-62138 https://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-areas-with-low... > To vote a particular way in the hope of change? Why wouldn't that be rational? There are plenty of historical examples of people voting for "change" that ended up backfiring wildly. I think you could find quite a few of those in the same ideological spectrum of people like Wilders.

jacquesm 3y ago

> If the Dutch want to vote themselves into a Brexit, then so be it - the foreigners will go elsewhere, trade barriers will be erected to "protect" the local economy, and time will tell who will be ahead economically and culturally. And plenty of locals will go elsewhere too. I for one. The morons that effected Brexit should be enough of an example that any other EU country that wants to go the same route has been amply warned about what that will do your country. It's amazing that so many people are utterly blind but then again, live long enough and nothing really surprises you any more.

shiroiuma 3y ago
Exactly where would you go? It's not like there's a lot of nice, developed nations on par with Netherlands that you can just pick up and move to. Perhaps some other EU nations, but many of those are electing similar people lately.