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No thank you. It was hard enough growing up in a Catholic household with a firewall. My career in remote tech is despite the obstacles placed in my way, not bec

No thank you. It was hard enough growing up in a Catholic household with a firewall. My career in remote tech is despite the obstacles placed in my way, not because of them. I would never support similarly gimping children in an increasingly online world. Banning kids from congregating on the internet is a reprehensible idea.

bartread 3y ago
I think the debate is a little more nuanced than this. Any action at scale in this area will deliver both benefits and downsides. What we need to do is look at what action will deliver the greatest net benefit to the most young people. As I’ve said elsewhere, I’m not a fan of broad brush action in general, but if it delivers that net benefit I’d be supportive. This is not to invalidate your own experience - it sounds awful - but we can’t make policy decisions at this scale based only on individual experiences. Personally I dread the impact that social media might have on our daughters as they move on to secondary school.
- soulofmischief 3y ago
  To reverse that, we can't make policy decisions which negatively impact the basic human rights of individuals.
  - bartread 3y ago
    Except that the reality is that we can and do, and we do it all the time. Here’s an example of an institution that as a matter of both habit and statute does so consistently: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Institute_for_Health_and_Care_Excellence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Institute_for_Healt.... Note that I’m not suggesting NICE is always right, but they do at least try to make decisions that bring optimal benefits to the largest possible group within the overall population to which they have a duty of care. Making decisions at scale is always hard, and sometimes outright terrible, because some people always lose out. Nobody likes this or thinks it’s anything other than horrible but, going back to social media, if I can save 5 kids from serious harm by banning social media for them versus 1 or 2 if I don’t, that’s a grim decision but also one I’d make. Of course, it’s not that simple, and I don’t really know where the net benefit lies, but that’s what we have to figure out.
    - soulofmischief 3y ago
      When I say "we can't", I mean "we can't ethically" or "I do not support a government that". > if I can save 5 kids from serious harm by banning social media for them versus 1 or 2 if I don’t, that’s a grim decision but also one I’d make. Not me, and I'd appreciate it if you don't attempt to parent my children for me.
      - bartread 3y ago
        I'm not trying to parent your children for you. Why would you think that? I'm looking out for the welfare of my own. Are you looking for a perfect solution?
        soulofmischief 3y ago
        Then firewall your network and lock down their phones. Don't bother me and my own household with overreaching governmental oversight which is ripe for abuse by authoritarian administrations.
        bartread 3y ago
        Do you understand that governments already abuse the data held by social media companies and that, by removing, limiting, or regulating young peoples' access to social media one of the outcomes would be that social media companies would hold less data that governments could abuse? Do you also understand that governments and other hostile threat actors already use social media as a propaganda tool to spread misinformation? Do you think it's a good thing that children and teenagers are exposed to this? Do you like that your household is exposed to it? Do you further realise that social media companies profiting off the back of social and societal problems they cause is also an abuse of power? Is that corporate abuse of power really better than government abuse of power? I happen to think we can come to a solution that reduces all of these abuses. In fact I think we need to. Whether or not that involves a ban on social media use by under-18s or under-16s or whatever, I've already made clear I'm not sure of, though I can see that it might be a helpful option. What you're proposing on the other hand is no solution at all: many parents aren't capable of correctly configuring a firewall or securely locking down a phone, even though products exist that make both easier. Some would be able to learn, but some wouldn't. You're simply burying your head in the sand.

bartread 3y ago

I think the debate is a little more nuanced than this. Any action at scale in this area will deliver both benefits and downsides. What we need to do is look at what action will deliver the greatest net benefit to the most young people. As I’ve said elsewhere, I’m not a fan of broad brush action in general, but if it delivers that net benefit I’d be supportive. This is not to invalidate your own experience - it sounds awful - but we can’t make policy decisions at this scale based only on individual experiences. Personally I dread the impact that social media might have on our daughters as they move on to secondary school.

soulofmischief 3y ago
To reverse that, we can't make policy decisions which negatively impact the basic human rights of individuals.
- bartread 3y ago
  Except that the reality is that we can and do, and we do it all the time. Here’s an example of an institution that as a matter of both habit and statute does so consistently: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Institute_for_Health_and_Care_Excellence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Institute_for_Healt.... Note that I’m not suggesting NICE is always right, but they do at least try to make decisions that bring optimal benefits to the largest possible group within the overall population to which they have a duty of care. Making decisions at scale is always hard, and sometimes outright terrible, because some people always lose out. Nobody likes this or thinks it’s anything other than horrible but, going back to social media, if I can save 5 kids from serious harm by banning social media for them versus 1 or 2 if I don’t, that’s a grim decision but also one I’d make. Of course, it’s not that simple, and I don’t really know where the net benefit lies, but that’s what we have to figure out.
  - soulofmischief 3y ago
    When I say "we can't", I mean "we can't ethically" or "I do not support a government that". > if I can save 5 kids from serious harm by banning social media for them versus 1 or 2 if I don’t, that’s a grim decision but also one I’d make. Not me, and I'd appreciate it if you don't attempt to parent my children for me.
    - bartread 3y ago
      I'm not trying to parent your children for you. Why would you think that? I'm looking out for the welfare of my own. Are you looking for a perfect solution?
      - soulofmischief 3y ago
        Then firewall your network and lock down their phones. Don't bother me and my own household with overreaching governmental oversight which is ripe for abuse by authoritarian administrations.
        bartread 3y ago
        Do you understand that governments already abuse the data held by social media companies and that, by removing, limiting, or regulating young peoples' access to social media one of the outcomes would be that social media companies would hold less data that governments could abuse? Do you also understand that governments and other hostile threat actors already use social media as a propaganda tool to spread misinformation? Do you think it's a good thing that children and teenagers are exposed to this? Do you like that your household is exposed to it? Do you further realise that social media companies profiting off the back of social and societal problems they cause is also an abuse of power? Is that corporate abuse of power really better than government abuse of power? I happen to think we can come to a solution that reduces all of these abuses. In fact I think we need to. Whether or not that involves a ban on social media use by under-18s or under-16s or whatever, I've already made clear I'm not sure of, though I can see that it might be a helpful option. What you're proposing on the other hand is no solution at all: many parents aren't capable of correctly configuring a firewall or securely locking down a phone, even though products exist that make both easier. Some would be able to learn, but some wouldn't. You're simply burying your head in the sand.