4 ms·

>If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have a fab here in the EU. LOL This would devastate the world

by seper8 3y ago

>If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have a fab here in the EU. LOL This would devastate the world economy. Gl getting chips for phones, computers, satellites...

apexalpha 3y ago
They wouldn't have to put all their fabs here. But if they want the latest ASML machines they need to have at least one big fab inside the EU, or else they only get one generation back. There's only a handful of companies in the world producing chips at scale, so it wouldn't be too out of the question. You could even invite the Chinese to put their fabs in the EU so that they get a chip sector they control but also make them a bit more dependent on the EU, in stead of the EU on China. But hey, we can also just handover €30 billion of taxpayer money to TSMC and Intel, I guess.
- seper8 3y ago
  >There's only a handful of companies in the world producing chips at scale, so it wouldn't be too out of the question. Don't think you have any idea how complex it is to both set up the fabs and run them. Are you gonna fly half of Taiwan to run these fabs here? How long do you think this process is going to take?
  - apexalpha 3y ago
    >Don't think you have any idea how complex it is to both set up the fabs and run them. Are you gonna fly half of Taiwan to run these fabs here? How long do you think this process is going to take? I would think this would all happen the same way it would happen if we lured the companies here with €30 billion.
    - seper8 3y ago
      Luring them away is not limiting their ability to sell machines outside of EU, which is what you proposed in your op
    - baq 3y ago
      30B € is laughably small for bootstrapping a competitive process business. at least one zero missing. more likely two.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    Nearly all chip making machines are computer controlled. The operators could easily operate them remotely from Taiwan. Data centers already work that way - the economic value of the physical building is quite small because all the actual moneymaking can be done by an office full of software engineers in san Fransisco.
    - seper8 3y ago
      >The operators could easily operate them remotely from Taiwan. It's time to stop talking about things you don't know anything about. Comparing a server to an ASML litography machine...
    - nsteel 3y ago
      TSMC have delayed opening their US fab because apparently local talent was lacking, I think that suggests it cannot be done remotely. > Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) was supposed to have its first Arizona chip factory operational by late 2024 but now has confirmed significant delays. Primarily due to a shortage of technical workers with critical expertise in the US, TSMC projects to finish construction instead by 2025. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tsmc-delays-us-chip-fab-opening-says-us-talent-is-insufficient/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tsmc-delays-us-c...
      - tristan957 3y ago
        Sounds like we're likely to see TSMC have a large hand in determining course work in academia. Thanks for bringing this up.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  Isn't it better (though harder) to have a good environment for building things than to just write protectionist rules?
  - apexalpha 3y ago
    It should probably go hand in hand. The US federal government is spending a lot of money on getting fabs to the US. But they also banned ASML from exporting their machines to China. So they're simply doing both. Furthermore, the EU is more expensive than other countries because we have stricter environmental standards and our people don't want to work 50+ hours a week as many in Asia do. Letting Asian countries simply undercut your own homegrown companies because of these two (dis)advantages seems shortsighted.
  - dns_snek 3y ago
    At what cost? An environment with slave labor would be great if you wanted to have things produced for cheap. Should we allow slave labor to stay competitive? This is a pretty extreme example, but that's what it comes down to. Thanks to the free market, there's always going to be someone willing to do it for cheaper while sacrificing product quality, employee welfare, or environmental impact.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      > At what cost? At the cost of seeing people take advantage of the opportunity to add value for their customers. > This is a pretty extreme example, but that's what it comes down to It's not what it comes down to. Someone in the market for the cheapest smartphone possible won't buy a $10 phone even though it's cheaper than the next alternative, because quality also matters. Or at least, value for money matters. > Thanks to the free market, there's always going to be someone willing to do it for cheaper while sacrificing product quality Someone might be willing to offer something cheaper, but thanks to the free market, that option will only be popular if people believe it's good value for money and buy it. > employee welfare This is mostly a competition issue. If it's too expensive to create employers, there's no competition for workers. > or environmental impact This happens in all types of agreements. The limiter on non-free market countries for environmental impact isn't ethics, it's inefficiency. Only regulations can solve this.
- ekianjo 3y ago
  you dont build a big fab in a couple of days. and suitable sites are probably very few and you can expect the greens to complain all the way because of water use
Culonavirus 3y ago
[flagged]

by seper8 3y ago

apexalpha 3y ago

They wouldn't have to put all their fabs here. But if they want the latest ASML machines they need to have at least one big fab inside the EU, or else they only get one generation back. There's only a handful of companies in the world producing chips at scale, so it wouldn't be too out of the question. You could even invite the Chinese to put their fabs in the EU so that they get a chip sector they control but also make them a bit more dependent on the EU, in stead of the EU on China. But hey, we can also just handover €30 billion of taxpayer money to TSMC and Intel, I guess.

seper8 3y ago
>There's only a handful of companies in the world producing chips at scale, so it wouldn't be too out of the question. Don't think you have any idea how complex it is to both set up the fabs and run them. Are you gonna fly half of Taiwan to run these fabs here? How long do you think this process is going to take?
- apexalpha 3y ago
  >Don't think you have any idea how complex it is to both set up the fabs and run them. Are you gonna fly half of Taiwan to run these fabs here? How long do you think this process is going to take? I would think this would all happen the same way it would happen if we lured the companies here with €30 billion.
  - seper8 3y ago
    Luring them away is not limiting their ability to sell machines outside of EU, which is what you proposed in your op
  - baq 3y ago
    30B € is laughably small for bootstrapping a competitive process business. at least one zero missing. more likely two.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  Nearly all chip making machines are computer controlled. The operators could easily operate them remotely from Taiwan. Data centers already work that way - the economic value of the physical building is quite small because all the actual moneymaking can be done by an office full of software engineers in san Fransisco.
  - seper8 3y ago
    >The operators could easily operate them remotely from Taiwan. It's time to stop talking about things you don't know anything about. Comparing a server to an ASML litography machine...
  - nsteel 3y ago
    TSMC have delayed opening their US fab because apparently local talent was lacking, I think that suggests it cannot be done remotely. > Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) was supposed to have its first Arizona chip factory operational by late 2024 but now has confirmed significant delays. Primarily due to a shortage of technical workers with critical expertise in the US, TSMC projects to finish construction instead by 2025. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tsmc-delays-us-chip-fab-opening-says-us-talent-is-insufficient/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tsmc-delays-us-c...
    - tristan957 3y ago
      Sounds like we're likely to see TSMC have a large hand in determining course work in academia. Thanks for bringing this up.
robertlagrant 3y ago
Isn't it better (though harder) to have a good environment for building things than to just write protectionist rules?
- apexalpha 3y ago
  It should probably go hand in hand. The US federal government is spending a lot of money on getting fabs to the US. But they also banned ASML from exporting their machines to China. So they're simply doing both. Furthermore, the EU is more expensive than other countries because we have stricter environmental standards and our people don't want to work 50+ hours a week as many in Asia do. Letting Asian countries simply undercut your own homegrown companies because of these two (dis)advantages seems shortsighted.
- dns_snek 3y ago
  At what cost? An environment with slave labor would be great if you wanted to have things produced for cheap. Should we allow slave labor to stay competitive? This is a pretty extreme example, but that's what it comes down to. Thanks to the free market, there's always going to be someone willing to do it for cheaper while sacrificing product quality, employee welfare, or environmental impact.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > At what cost? At the cost of seeing people take advantage of the opportunity to add value for their customers. > This is a pretty extreme example, but that's what it comes down to It's not what it comes down to. Someone in the market for the cheapest smartphone possible won't buy a $10 phone even though it's cheaper than the next alternative, because quality also matters. Or at least, value for money matters. > Thanks to the free market, there's always going to be someone willing to do it for cheaper while sacrificing product quality Someone might be willing to offer something cheaper, but thanks to the free market, that option will only be popular if people believe it's good value for money and buy it. > employee welfare This is mostly a competition issue. If it's too expensive to create employers, there's no competition for workers. > or environmental impact This happens in all types of agreements. The limiter on non-free market countries for environmental impact isn't ethics, it's inefficiency. Only regulations can solve this.
ekianjo 3y ago
you dont build a big fab in a couple of days. and suitable sites are probably very few and you can expect the greens to complain all the way because of water use

Culonavirus 3y ago

[flagged]