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Copyright is not the only kind of Intellectual Property. While they may not be copyrightable (I think you may be refering to jugement related to having an AI as

by Sayrus 3y ago

Copyright is not the only kind of Intellectual Property. While they may not be copyrightable (I think you may be refering to jugement related to having an AI as author?), they clearly are MistralAI IP. In the same way, data in a database are usually not copyrightable. They are still the company's property (excluding issues with PII and such).

bhickey 3y ago
Database rights don't exist in the United States. Their weights obviously aren't protected by trademark. So, what IP regime protects the weights?
- Sayrus 3y ago
  Mistral AI is incorporated in Paris, France. IANAL, but I think these[1][2] may qualify to protect these weights. While there is a discussion to be had on sovereignty and international reaches of local laws (such as DMCA for instance), I think it's disingenuous to consider only US legal point of view. [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32019L0790#d1e822-92-1 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... [2] https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/loda/id/JORFTEXT000000573438/2024-01-31/ https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/loda/id/JORFTEXT000000573438/...
  - bhickey 3y ago
    > Mistral AI is incorporated in Paris, France. No US court is going to invent new rights under US law because a company happens to be incorporated in a foreign jurisdiction. > While there is a discussion to be had on sovereignty and international reaches of local laws (such as DMCA for instance) The DMCA (and GDPR) do not have international reach. The DMCA only appears to apply internationally because it binds a whole series of American companies with an international presence. Meanwhile the GDPR protects European residents. A company dealing with these residents has crossed the border, so to speak. > I think it's disingenuous to consider only US legal point of view. Candidly, you're either confused about what disingenuous means or you're being disingenuous yourself.
    - Sayrus 3y ago
      > The DMCA (and GDPR) do not have international reach. > The DMCA only appears to apply internationally because it binds a whole series of American companies with an international presence. And by the fact that DMCA Takedown Notice and processes are valid in many countries. You can send a valid takedown to a french company and they'll take the content down. Not because of DMCA law in the US or because of American companies, but because the notice is accepted and has legal value within the scope of the local law. > Their weights obviously aren't protected by trademark. So, what IP regime protects the weights? > No US court is going to invent new rights under US law because a company happens to be incorporated in a foreign jurisdiction. Your original question doesn't specify "in the US". A French company wouldn't be able to copy these without issues. Does that mean you need to be protected everywhere to be qualified as protected? Or simply in the US? If so, then you can use your own argument to say that a Chinese court (or Marshall Islands I guess?) won't create a law for a company incorporated in the US. Which in turn means that IP is not protecting anything since it doesn't apply to every single country on the world with no exceptions. And yet, IP does protect things. You can't both not scope your question and except a reponse scoped only to the US.
greiskul 3y ago
I'm not so sure. If it is not copyrightable, and it is a patent, and not a trademark, which legal protection would it have? It could definitely be considered a trade secret, and the theft of it and misapproation of it would be a crime, but once it has been published, people that just used the published version I don't believe would be comitting a crime, since it would lose it's trade secret status.
- Sharlin 3y ago
  There are certain "related rights" [1] that are weaker than full copyright. These include, maybe most importantly, performers' rights, but also protection for things like photographs (ones that aren't unique enough to qualify for full copyright) and, in many jurisdictions, databases. These aren't covered by the Berne convention so vary quite a bit. But whether a huge chunk of floating-point numbers qualifies for any legal protection, remains to be seen. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Related_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Related_rights
- sroussey 3y ago
  In Europe you can copyright a database of facts, which is not something you can do in the US. Also, people go to jail for leaking trade secrets, and this certainly qualifies.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

by Sayrus 3y ago

bhickey 3y ago

Database rights don't exist in the United States. Their weights obviously aren't protected by trademark. So, what IP regime protects the weights?

Sayrus 3y ago
Mistral AI is incorporated in Paris, France. IANAL, but I think these[1][2] may qualify to protect these weights. While there is a discussion to be had on sovereignty and international reaches of local laws (such as DMCA for instance), I think it's disingenuous to consider only US legal point of view. [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32019L0790#d1e822-92-1 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... [2] https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/loda/id/JORFTEXT000000573438/2024-01-31/ https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/loda/id/JORFTEXT000000573438/...
- bhickey 3y ago
  > Mistral AI is incorporated in Paris, France. No US court is going to invent new rights under US law because a company happens to be incorporated in a foreign jurisdiction. > While there is a discussion to be had on sovereignty and international reaches of local laws (such as DMCA for instance) The DMCA (and GDPR) do not have international reach. The DMCA only appears to apply internationally because it binds a whole series of American companies with an international presence. Meanwhile the GDPR protects European residents. A company dealing with these residents has crossed the border, so to speak. > I think it's disingenuous to consider only US legal point of view. Candidly, you're either confused about what disingenuous means or you're being disingenuous yourself.
  - Sayrus 3y ago
    > The DMCA (and GDPR) do not have international reach. > The DMCA only appears to apply internationally because it binds a whole series of American companies with an international presence. And by the fact that DMCA Takedown Notice and processes are valid in many countries. You can send a valid takedown to a french company and they'll take the content down. Not because of DMCA law in the US or because of American companies, but because the notice is accepted and has legal value within the scope of the local law. > Their weights obviously aren't protected by trademark. So, what IP regime protects the weights? > No US court is going to invent new rights under US law because a company happens to be incorporated in a foreign jurisdiction. Your original question doesn't specify "in the US". A French company wouldn't be able to copy these without issues. Does that mean you need to be protected everywhere to be qualified as protected? Or simply in the US? If so, then you can use your own argument to say that a Chinese court (or Marshall Islands I guess?) won't create a law for a company incorporated in the US. Which in turn means that IP is not protecting anything since it doesn't apply to every single country on the world with no exceptions. And yet, IP does protect things. You can't both not scope your question and except a reponse scoped only to the US.

greiskul 3y ago

I'm not so sure. If it is not copyrightable, and it is a patent, and not a trademark, which legal protection would it have? It could definitely be considered a trade secret, and the theft of it and misapproation of it would be a crime, but once it has been published, people that just used the published version I don't believe would be comitting a crime, since it would lose it's trade secret status.

Sharlin 3y ago
There are certain "related rights" [1] that are weaker than full copyright. These include, maybe most importantly, performers' rights, but also protection for things like photographs (ones that aren't unique enough to qualify for full copyright) and, in many jurisdictions, databases. These aren't covered by the Berne convention so vary quite a bit. But whether a huge chunk of floating-point numbers qualifies for any legal protection, remains to be seen. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Related_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Related_rights
sroussey 3y ago
In Europe you can copyright a database of facts, which is not something you can do in the US. Also, people go to jail for leaking trade secrets, and this certainly qualifies.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]