4 ms·

Price fixing of this kind as well as the rent control kind should all be outlawed. Government should pay the diff, if they want to subsidize grandma and grandp

by mc32 3y ago

Price fixing of this kind as well as the rent control kind should all be outlawed. Government should pay the diff, if they want to subsidize grandma and grandpa or low level service job workers in their apartments --and I am for subsidies for people how do need them; I just don't think rent control is a good instrument. Arguably rent control is a soft form of expropriation. Governments can pass taxes and build/buy, if they like.

philipov 3y ago
Because price caps cause shortages? Subsidies are just a scheme to funnel taxes to landlords: bad idea. If you want to avoid using price caps, then you gotta flood the supply with cheep housing to crater the market instead. I think landowners are going to fight that even harder than landlords fight rent control.
- samatman 3y ago
  Because there's no such thing as a price cap. This applies to rent controls as much as it does to "gouging" laws. An imposed maximum price which is below the market-clearing rate just means that some of the cost has to be paid in a different way. With apartments this is often information, you have to be in the know to get a chance to rent. Sometimes it's just illegally charging the difference between the rent controlled price and the market price: if you won't pay it, someone else will. Or you get a second mini-landlord, someone rents at the artificially-low rate and subleases the apartment at market rate. For rent "stabilization", which is rent control lite, the cost is paid with friction (people who would move but can't because they're paying below market), scarcity, and (as a consequence of that scarcity) higher prices when the landlord is finally free to charge market rates. But you can't just defeat market pricing by fiat, it just doesn't work.
  - Retric 3y ago
    The article makes it clear this isn’t about rent control. The concern is market manipulation via artificially reducing supply and similar tactics not the government picking a price. Collusion is far easier with housing because nobody can flood the market so you don’t need every participant to agree. In Seattle, for example, ProPublica found that 10 property managers oversaw 70% of all multifamily apartments in one neighborhood — and every single one used pricing software sold by RealPage. “Setting prices with an algorithm is no different from doing it over cigars and whiskey in a private club,”
  - worik 3y ago
    > But you can't just defeat market pricing by fiat, it just doesn't work. True But there is still a lot city and national governments can do. "Rent control" should not mean simply "cap rents". It means having a richer set of criteria for allocation accommodation units than a market with price, and ability to pay
Retric 3y ago
It’s outlawing collusion via algorithmic adjustments not setting a specific price. “A group of senators are set to introduce legislation Tuesday that would make it illegal for landlords to use algorithms to artificially inflate the price of rent or reduce the supply of housing.”
MSFT_Edging 3y ago
> Protect the landlord's profit at all cost Why should the gov subsidize the landlord in order to allow people to not be homeless? The market rate is too high, sorry landlords.
- mc32 3y ago
  Because presumably it's your property and they are interfering with market prices. If the gov wants to make them free they can, if they buy your property and through taxes make it available to indigent people. That's not something you should shoulder.
  - MSFT_Edging 3y ago
    Its a bad investment, they should sell at a loss and find something else to do.
- itake 3y ago
  Landlords have the opposite problem on the west coast: Instead of the gov subsidizing landlords, private landlords subsidize the government. The rental protections give renters a softer landing for non-payment on the landlord’s dime. Landlords literally have to pay tenants to leave. The "cash for keys" money comes from the backs of future tenants. Also, for most of the usa now, it is cheaper to rent than buy. My mortgage, taxes, and insurance is way beyond what I could rent my house for. It makes zero sense to create more rental properties.
  - mikeyouse 3y ago
    Eh.. in California at least, most landlords are being massively subsidized by Prop 13 related shenanigans. At my last apartment in SF, my landlord's property tax bill was less than 1 month of my rent (less than $3k annual) -- I was shopping for similar homes and my property taxes would have been closer to $20k annually. Multi-unit buildings were way worse since they can be transferred creatively without reseting the property tax assessment. Just picking on a random building in my old neighborhood but 498 Carl in the Inner Sunset of SF is a 6-unit rental building - at least 3 of the units have turned over in the past few years and were rented for over $3k each. Total property taxes due on this 6,000sq ft building which is netting the owner more than $150k in rent are $6,800 annually. https://sanfrancisco-ca.county-taxes.com/public/property_tax/accounts/1265-015?qid=89768972d3905eb5e36e92dc14c0a1f0 https://sanfrancisco-ca.county-taxes.com/public/property_tax... Across the street a nice 1,700sq ft SFH which sold in 2021 -- property taxes on this house are $20,000 annually. https://sanfrancisco-ca.county-taxes.com/public/property_tax/accounts/1750-042?qid=85dd0a746a5e47a345687b9b64f6a583 https://sanfrancisco-ca.county-taxes.com/public/property_tax...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
standardUser 3y ago
Many rent control implementations are fairly extreme and you end up with people paying $400/mo for a $4000/mo unit. What we need is better rent control, wherein prices are capable of rising to market rates gradually, but are not allowed to spike in ways that destabilize families and neighborhoods. We also need laws mandating 2-year rent increase notices and multi-year lease options.

by mc32 3y ago

philipov 3y ago

Because price caps cause shortages? Subsidies are just a scheme to funnel taxes to landlords: bad idea. If you want to avoid using price caps, then you gotta flood the supply with cheep housing to crater the market instead. I think landowners are going to fight that even harder than landlords fight rent control.

samatman 3y ago
Because there's no such thing as a price cap. This applies to rent controls as much as it does to "gouging" laws. An imposed maximum price which is below the market-clearing rate just means that some of the cost has to be paid in a different way. With apartments this is often information, you have to be in the know to get a chance to rent. Sometimes it's just illegally charging the difference between the rent controlled price and the market price: if you won't pay it, someone else will. Or you get a second mini-landlord, someone rents at the artificially-low rate and subleases the apartment at market rate. For rent "stabilization", which is rent control lite, the cost is paid with friction (people who would move but can't because they're paying below market), scarcity, and (as a consequence of that scarcity) higher prices when the landlord is finally free to charge market rates. But you can't just defeat market pricing by fiat, it just doesn't work.
- Retric 3y ago
  The article makes it clear this isn’t about rent control. The concern is market manipulation via artificially reducing supply and similar tactics not the government picking a price. Collusion is far easier with housing because nobody can flood the market so you don’t need every participant to agree. In Seattle, for example, ProPublica found that 10 property managers oversaw 70% of all multifamily apartments in one neighborhood — and every single one used pricing software sold by RealPage. “Setting prices with an algorithm is no different from doing it over cigars and whiskey in a private club,”
- worik 3y ago
  > But you can't just defeat market pricing by fiat, it just doesn't work. True But there is still a lot city and national governments can do. "Rent control" should not mean simply "cap rents". It means having a richer set of criteria for allocation accommodation units than a market with price, and ability to pay

Retric 3y ago

It’s outlawing collusion via algorithmic adjustments not setting a specific price. “A group of senators are set to introduce legislation Tuesday that would make it illegal for landlords to use algorithms to artificially inflate the price of rent or reduce the supply of housing.”

MSFT_Edging 3y ago

> Protect the landlord's profit at all cost Why should the gov subsidize the landlord in order to allow people to not be homeless? The market rate is too high, sorry landlords.

mc32 3y ago
Because presumably it's your property and they are interfering with market prices. If the gov wants to make them free they can, if they buy your property and through taxes make it available to indigent people. That's not something you should shoulder.
- MSFT_Edging 3y ago
  Its a bad investment, they should sell at a loss and find something else to do.
itake 3y ago
Landlords have the opposite problem on the west coast: Instead of the gov subsidizing landlords, private landlords subsidize the government. The rental protections give renters a softer landing for non-payment on the landlord’s dime. Landlords literally have to pay tenants to leave. The "cash for keys" money comes from the backs of future tenants. Also, for most of the usa now, it is cheaper to rent than buy. My mortgage, taxes, and insurance is way beyond what I could rent my house for. It makes zero sense to create more rental properties.
- mikeyouse 3y ago
  Eh.. in California at least, most landlords are being massively subsidized by Prop 13 related shenanigans. At my last apartment in SF, my landlord's property tax bill was less than 1 month of my rent (less than $3k annual) -- I was shopping for similar homes and my property taxes would have been closer to $20k annually. Multi-unit buildings were way worse since they can be transferred creatively without reseting the property tax assessment. Just picking on a random building in my old neighborhood but 498 Carl in the Inner Sunset of SF is a 6-unit rental building - at least 3 of the units have turned over in the past few years and were rented for over $3k each. Total property taxes due on this 6,000sq ft building which is netting the owner more than $150k in rent are $6,800 annually. https://sanfrancisco-ca.county-taxes.com/public/property_tax/accounts/1265-015?qid=89768972d3905eb5e36e92dc14c0a1f0 https://sanfrancisco-ca.county-taxes.com/public/property_tax... Across the street a nice 1,700sq ft SFH which sold in 2021 -- property taxes on this house are $20,000 annually. https://sanfrancisco-ca.county-taxes.com/public/property_tax/accounts/1750-042?qid=85dd0a746a5e47a345687b9b64f6a583 https://sanfrancisco-ca.county-taxes.com/public/property_tax...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

standardUser 3y ago

Many rent control implementations are fairly extreme and you end up with people paying $400/mo for a $4000/mo unit. What we need is better rent control, wherein prices are capable of rising to market rates gradually, but are not allowed to spike in ways that destabilize families and neighborhoods. We also need laws mandating 2-year rent increase notices and multi-year lease options.