3 ms·

I think this is assuming two things that are not in evidence: 1) Most people want to work from home, enough that they would feel significant envy of those who

I think this is assuming two things that are not in evidence: 1) Most people want to work from home, enough that they would feel significant envy of those who do even if their own job is one that cannot logistically do that (eg, plumber). 2) The people working from home are doing so in such opulent luxury that it creates more envy on top of that. ("...sitting on the beach") It's quite plain from this forum alone—a forum which is heavily skewed toward knowledge workers of various types, and especially computer programmers, a job which, in terms of its basic requirements, can unquestionably be done from home—that if #1 is true, it is not by a vast margin. Many people clearly like going into the office. Many people with jobs involving in-person manual labor clearly love their jobs. I think that the kind of "fairness" you mention in your second line is, indeed, very important—but I think that it's more about "you could be letting me do XYZ, like they are, but you're preventing me for arbitrary or selfish reasons," not "they're doing XYZ, but due to something fundamental about my circumstances, that's impossible for me." That is to say, it's more important for everyone whose job can be reasonably made remote to have the option to do so, than for every job in the world to have that option, including the ones where it's physically impossible. People are generally pretty good at understanding the inherent tradeoffs in such things, especially when they come to them after the initial transition has taken place and make an informed choice (obviously there's going to be more friction in the transition time—I don't think that's avoidable). In short, I don't think there's more to worry about here than the already-existing (and likely permanent, at least until we get true UBI or something) state of things, that some people who have fewer options in the career they can choose to go into feel resentful of those who have more such options.

ryandrake 3y ago
> Many people clearly like going into the office. Many people with jobs involving in-person manual labor clearly love their jobs. Anecdotal, but whenever the topic of work comes up among my friends and neighbors, and I disclose to them that I work from home, 100% of them say things like "Wow, good for you!" and "You're so lucky!" and 0% of them so far have said "Sorry to hear that... you must really miss your commute and face to face meetings!"
- randomdata 3y ago
  Keep in mind that work from home doesn't literally mean work from home. One can 'work from home' in an office, on the train, or even in a field out in the middle of nowhere. It means work from wherever, whenever. It represents autonomy. It is the autonomy that is enviable. A manual labourer needing to be at a remote location in order to do the job, but able to come and go as he pleases, would be met with similar statements of "Good for you", "You are lucky". If you, instead, told that you were locked in your bedroom from 9-5 and if you so much as stop moving your mouse you will be instantly fired, "I'm sorry" would assuredly follow. It is not the "from home" part that you are being congratulated on.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  Nobody misses the commute. Nobody misses face-to-face meetings. (For approximate values of "nobody"). Human contact... at least some people miss that. No, Teams is not the same.
  - asoneth 3y ago
    Agreed that most people do not miss their commute, though because I am lazy I found it useful to force me to ride every day. But I'm surprised to hear that you think "nobody misses face-to-face meetings". At least in my office that seems to be the only reason anyone shows up -- people pop by the office when they have discussions, presentations, collaborative design sessions, etc and WFH otherwise. In several cases someone has explicitly polled the group chat the day before to find out who is thinking about to coming in -- if enough attendees plan to join remotely then we typically switch the whole meeting to be a dial-in only so it doesn't end up being one person calling in from an empty conference room and everyone else at home.
  - JambalayaJim 3y ago
    Face to face meetings are a thousand percent better than virtual meetings.
- eggy 3y ago
  I think a lot of those people think that you also get away with a lot without supervision because the average worker will tend to comfortable effort if they think they are not being audited somehow. For me, I could keep productive, but work crept all across the day and sort of put a buzz kill on WFH even when I lived in exotic locations in SE Asia (before the digital nomad thing). I have a lot of manual labor and knowledge skills, so I pretty much work where and when I want. Sometimes I do manual labor overseas in a job that lets me do both. I would never be able to make six figures and do 40 to 50% of my job manually here in the US. The respect for manual labor, the closing of trade schools, and the false ruler of the college degree have led to the decline of such hybrid position possibilities. Construction is still a field where you can wield a computer and have boots-on-the-ground experience. It's also easy to see productivity, something real, tangible as the product, which for me, as an effort of my mind and body (Mens et menus, MIT's slogan) feels more fulfilling than when I was purely doing computer work. I am at the stage of thinking on really working for myself - not for others - by subsistence living with my family. Growing up in Brooklyn, I used to dream about a large piece of land in Wyoming or Montana. By the 80s, the Japanese were buying lots of property in Montana.
jordanpg 3y ago
You make good points, but I do think that the proliferation of WFH has the potential to poke a bear that wasn't getting poked before. Just one more thing to make those people unfortunate enough to find themselves in certain ruts to feel defeated by.
- danaris 3y ago
  Then maybe it will be one more impetus to get people unionized who aren't currently.

ryandrake 3y ago

> Many people clearly like going into the office. Many people with jobs involving in-person manual labor clearly love their jobs. Anecdotal, but whenever the topic of work comes up among my friends and neighbors, and I disclose to them that I work from home, 100% of them say things like "Wow, good for you!" and "You're so lucky!" and 0% of them so far have said "Sorry to hear that... you must really miss your commute and face to face meetings!"

randomdata 3y ago
Keep in mind that work from home doesn't literally mean work from home. One can 'work from home' in an office, on the train, or even in a field out in the middle of nowhere. It means work from wherever, whenever. It represents autonomy. It is the autonomy that is enviable. A manual labourer needing to be at a remote location in order to do the job, but able to come and go as he pleases, would be met with similar statements of "Good for you", "You are lucky". If you, instead, told that you were locked in your bedroom from 9-5 and if you so much as stop moving your mouse you will be instantly fired, "I'm sorry" would assuredly follow. It is not the "from home" part that you are being congratulated on.
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
Nobody misses the commute. Nobody misses face-to-face meetings. (For approximate values of "nobody"). Human contact... at least some people miss that. No, Teams is not the same.
- asoneth 3y ago
  Agreed that most people do not miss their commute, though because I am lazy I found it useful to force me to ride every day. But I'm surprised to hear that you think "nobody misses face-to-face meetings". At least in my office that seems to be the only reason anyone shows up -- people pop by the office when they have discussions, presentations, collaborative design sessions, etc and WFH otherwise. In several cases someone has explicitly polled the group chat the day before to find out who is thinking about to coming in -- if enough attendees plan to join remotely then we typically switch the whole meeting to be a dial-in only so it doesn't end up being one person calling in from an empty conference room and everyone else at home.
- JambalayaJim 3y ago
  Face to face meetings are a thousand percent better than virtual meetings.
eggy 3y ago
I think a lot of those people think that you also get away with a lot without supervision because the average worker will tend to comfortable effort if they think they are not being audited somehow. For me, I could keep productive, but work crept all across the day and sort of put a buzz kill on WFH even when I lived in exotic locations in SE Asia (before the digital nomad thing). I have a lot of manual labor and knowledge skills, so I pretty much work where and when I want. Sometimes I do manual labor overseas in a job that lets me do both. I would never be able to make six figures and do 40 to 50% of my job manually here in the US. The respect for manual labor, the closing of trade schools, and the false ruler of the college degree have led to the decline of such hybrid position possibilities. Construction is still a field where you can wield a computer and have boots-on-the-ground experience. It's also easy to see productivity, something real, tangible as the product, which for me, as an effort of my mind and body (Mens et menus, MIT's slogan) feels more fulfilling than when I was purely doing computer work. I am at the stage of thinking on really working for myself - not for others - by subsistence living with my family. Growing up in Brooklyn, I used to dream about a large piece of land in Wyoming or Montana. By the 80s, the Japanese were buying lots of property in Montana.

jordanpg 3y ago

You make good points, but I do think that the proliferation of WFH has the potential to poke a bear that wasn't getting poked before. Just one more thing to make those people unfortunate enough to find themselves in certain ruts to feel defeated by.

danaris 3y ago
Then maybe it will be one more impetus to get people unionized who aren't currently.