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That's when my son graduated college. A couple years earlier one of his friends was offered a job in IT rather than finish his degree. (e.g. no need to graduate

That's when my son graduated college. A couple years earlier one of his friends was offered a job in IT rather than finish his degree. (e.g. no need to graduate, we'll hire you now.) I suggested that was a short term strategy and that lack of a degree could result in lack of mobility later. He graduated at a time when companies were rescinding offers to hire and even trying to claw back hiring bonuses. It was a long time before he found work in the field and I suspect that it has affected the trajectory of his career to this day.

TremendousJudge 3y ago
How did his friend fare, with no degree but two years of experience?
- neogodless 3y ago
  See my comment above - not the person in question (to my knowledge), but also no degree and hit 2001 with 2 years experience. I'm not "hacker news material" - i.e. no Big Tech or Startup experience. Just slowly, steadily worked my way up in salary mostly at small-ish (6-100 employees) software / marketing agencies or doing similar work.
- HankB99 3y ago
  I don't recall what path his friend took. As for my advice, I don't regret it at all. But the one thing that might have made a difference was that I could afford to put our sons through college (public school, UIUC) so neither graduated with debt.
alexpetralia 3y ago
That is sad to hear, but hopefully you do not feel too much regret over it. 9 times out of 10, your advice would fare better, but you happened to roll the die in an unlucky period.
- randomdata 3y ago
  > 9 times out of 10, your advice would fare better Not according to the data. There is absolutely no period where general college attainment has shown to improve mobility when as compared to equivalent people without college attainment. What the data does show is a tendency for those with the capability to successfully complete college to have greater mobility when as compared to dissimilar people (i.e. those hindered by disabilities), but it is faulty to attribute that to college. Clearly it is the life challenges that hold people back. It is not the lack of a degree that keeps the down syndrome kid from being considered 'management material'. There is a stronger case to be made for high school attainment, but even that is no doubt confounded by the rise of industrialization showing up at the same time, providing new mobility opportunities. The meaningful gains in high school attainment we have seen over the last 20 years have not translated to improved mobility for that subset of the population.
  - pb7 3y ago
    >What the data does show is a tendency for those with the capability to successfully complete college to have greater mobility From the perspective of the company, if the only way to have a signal on this is via a degree, and you have two identical candidates otherwise, which one are you choosing?
    - randomdata 3y ago
      If you have two identical candidates except one took the bus to the interview and the other showed up in a Ferrari, which one are you choosing? That's right, the one with the Ferrari. But that is a game you, the worker, don't want to start playing. You will lose in the end.
      - tonyedgecombe 3y ago
        I bought some new windows for my house a couple of years ago. I rejected the company who sent a salesman in a flash car purely because of the car.
neogodless 3y ago
I would have graduated with a Comp Sci degree in 2001, but I dropped out in late 1999 with a low level web dev job. (Yes, my title was something like Assistant Webmaster.) My first job (slicing in Photoshop, Cold Fusion being used for local small business web sites...) actually fizzled out, but then I got a proper salaried job doing Classic ASP + SQL Server + Microsoft Commerce Server type work. Been doing work roughly in that area ever since, typically for small businesses. While I did see a local company downsize sometime around 2002/2003 from 50 to 20 employees (but then they hired me not long after), I wasn't affected negatively by the "tech crash" because every local business was on board for getting at least a web site up.
kvonhorn 3y ago
The pro move was to look at that job as a long-term internship that allowed him to save up cash so he could go back to school when the economy went south without taking out student loans. This was something we were talking about in college in the late 90s as the dot coms were getting huge: do you stay in college and get the degree, or do you take the first job that comes along, save up your money, and head back to school when the economy turns south?
- HankB99 3y ago
  That would be a good strategy if you anticipated the crash. Many did not. But in any case this was at a time when a college degree was reasonably affordable and I could cover the cost of his degree.

TremendousJudge 3y ago

How did his friend fare, with no degree but two years of experience?

neogodless 3y ago
See my comment above - not the person in question (to my knowledge), but also no degree and hit 2001 with 2 years experience. I'm not "hacker news material" - i.e. no Big Tech or Startup experience. Just slowly, steadily worked my way up in salary mostly at small-ish (6-100 employees) software / marketing agencies or doing similar work.
HankB99 3y ago
I don't recall what path his friend took. As for my advice, I don't regret it at all. But the one thing that might have made a difference was that I could afford to put our sons through college (public school, UIUC) so neither graduated with debt.

alexpetralia 3y ago

That is sad to hear, but hopefully you do not feel too much regret over it. 9 times out of 10, your advice would fare better, but you happened to roll the die in an unlucky period.

randomdata 3y ago
> 9 times out of 10, your advice would fare better Not according to the data. There is absolutely no period where general college attainment has shown to improve mobility when as compared to equivalent people without college attainment. What the data does show is a tendency for those with the capability to successfully complete college to have greater mobility when as compared to dissimilar people (i.e. those hindered by disabilities), but it is faulty to attribute that to college. Clearly it is the life challenges that hold people back. It is not the lack of a degree that keeps the down syndrome kid from being considered 'management material'. There is a stronger case to be made for high school attainment, but even that is no doubt confounded by the rise of industrialization showing up at the same time, providing new mobility opportunities. The meaningful gains in high school attainment we have seen over the last 20 years have not translated to improved mobility for that subset of the population.
- pb7 3y ago
  >What the data does show is a tendency for those with the capability to successfully complete college to have greater mobility From the perspective of the company, if the only way to have a signal on this is via a degree, and you have two identical candidates otherwise, which one are you choosing?
  - randomdata 3y ago
    If you have two identical candidates except one took the bus to the interview and the other showed up in a Ferrari, which one are you choosing? That's right, the one with the Ferrari. But that is a game you, the worker, don't want to start playing. You will lose in the end.
    - tonyedgecombe 3y ago
      I bought some new windows for my house a couple of years ago. I rejected the company who sent a salesman in a flash car purely because of the car.

neogodless 3y ago

I would have graduated with a Comp Sci degree in 2001, but I dropped out in late 1999 with a low level web dev job. (Yes, my title was something like Assistant Webmaster.) My first job (slicing in Photoshop, Cold Fusion being used for local small business web sites...) actually fizzled out, but then I got a proper salaried job doing Classic ASP + SQL Server + Microsoft Commerce Server type work. Been doing work roughly in that area ever since, typically for small businesses. While I did see a local company downsize sometime around 2002/2003 from 50 to 20 employees (but then they hired me not long after), I wasn't affected negatively by the "tech crash" because every local business was on board for getting at least a web site up.

kvonhorn 3y ago

The pro move was to look at that job as a long-term internship that allowed him to save up cash so he could go back to school when the economy went south without taking out student loans. This was something we were talking about in college in the late 90s as the dot coms were getting huge: do you stay in college and get the degree, or do you take the first job that comes along, save up your money, and head back to school when the economy turns south?

HankB99 3y ago
That would be a good strategy if you anticipated the crash. Many did not. But in any case this was at a time when a college degree was reasonably affordable and I could cover the cost of his degree.