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>but I can't help but call it how much less rigorous HN is when talking about this issue than, say, anything that doesn't affect them. I think it's because it

>but I can't help but call it how much less rigorous HN is when talking about this issue than, say, anything that doesn't affect them. I think it's because it affects people here disproportionately. Let's be honest. I'm guessing a lot of people here are software developers or work in a technical role in general. People in these roles tend to be introverts. Introverts are unlikely to prefer the office. On top of that, people here are only thinking about their own role - but not all of the company. For example, it could be that software development can be done with 100% remote, but what about the company's marketing, finance, HR, operations departments? What if those departments function better in person? Will the company let all the software developers and product managers work remotely and then demand the other departments to come into the office? How does it look if the company only lets their software developers work remotely but everyone else must come in, including retail/factory workers if there are any? I think people here don't consider everything when it comes to RTO. So we keep hearing conspiracy theories here about how executives/companies own real estate so they want employees back. I've always said this. If you are a software developer in the US, you should definitely advocate against remote work. Sooner or later, the company is going to realize they can hire the same developer for 15% of the salary that the company is paying you.

steveBK123 3y ago
I don't think its a conspiracy of CRE ownership. It's simply labor losing power to capital again as the economy / job market has turned. CEOs see remote/hybrid as an employee benefit that is at best slightly positive to them, probably neutral, so they are cutting it. Your office lunch and generous health care plans are next.
randomdata 3y ago
> Sooner or later, the company is going to realize they can hire the same developer for 15% of the salary that the company is paying you. Only if there is some kind of downturn in the software developer market that frees up those developers from the jobs they are currently doing. Otherwise, the companies will get into bidding wars, and the price will quickly return – at which point it's a lot cheaper to keep you. It's not like companies didn't figure that out in the 1990s. It was on the news like every single day. Granted, there are signs that we may be in the midst of that downturn. But if that's the case, an office isn't going to save you. You won't be needed regardless of where you happen to be sitting.
scarface_74 3y ago
I’m in no way an introvert. Part of my day job until six months ago was flying around the country talking to people doing requirements analysis, supporting pre-sales, training, the business dinners after work small talk etc and of course some development. But I also until last year “worked for a FAANG” remotely without having to leave my medium cost of living area and a year in, I was able to move to an even cheaper area with no state income tax where the local job market sucks for my specialty. It’s a big tourist area. As far as the company outsourcing somewhere cheaper, if after all of these years I’ve been in the industry all I can do is “codez real gud” and I’m that easily replaceable, I’ve done something remarkably wrong.
- steveBK123 3y ago
  Exactly, outsourcing success requires stakeholders and product actually writing down what they want, and the steps they want it done in, in verbose pedantic language and then staying on top of people who overlap for 1 hour per day at best to actually stick to that plan. If you have an org capable of doing that, amazing, sounds great.. I've not seen it once, anywhere, in 20 years. So given how real orgs actually work, the problem with the outsourcing model is - Good luck turning tasks around quickly, or changing directions on a dime, or course correcting devs who do most of their work while you are asleep. If companies really wanted to save money without all the pain, they'd hire nearshore US dev talent for 1/3 the cost of NYC/SF and eliminate most of those issues. But really for most businesses given the margins on software, dev costs end up being tolerable.
  - foobarian 3y ago
    > devs who do most of their work while you are asleep See, this is where Latin America comes in! There are lots of excellent devs all over Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, etc.
    - steveBK123 3y ago
      Super, but most of the rest still stands.
JTbane 3y ago
>Sooner or later, the company is going to realize they can hire the same developer for 15% of the salary that the company is paying you. Yes and no. Admittedly, I'm a full time SD in the US and I do make a decent salary, but offshoring and outsourcing don't worry me. There are many anecdotes of companies being burned by outsourcing as there is almost no accountability.
- Robotbeat 3y ago
  This is a problem with remote work as well, but this is waves away as a “management problem,” as if management is completely superfluous.
- steveBK123 3y ago
  Also I think AWS/SaaS replaced offshoring anyway. Boilerplate work gets done with commodify products. A much higher % of the work done by devs is actual real company IP than 10/20 years ago. So the question there too is - do you want to offshore your IP?
Plasmoid 3y ago
> If you are a software developer in the US, you should definitely advocate against remote work. Sooner or later, the company is going to realize they can hire the same developer for 15% of the salary that the company is paying you. This relies on a pretty common mistake, that software can really only be made in American offices. It's at least less horrific than only Americans can make good software but it's still wrong. There is no reason why a lot of software can't be made in India. There's nothing magical about Lahore than stops this from happening. Offshoring tends to fail pretty badly because companies focus exclusively on the bottom line in a globally competitive market place. If you're hiring a software engineer for $10/hr it's because their work product isn't worth $15/hr. Am I worried that my high compensation will trend downwards over time? Yeah, it's probably going to happen. Is all or most software engineering going to move to Bangalore? Not a chance.

steveBK123 3y ago

I don't think its a conspiracy of CRE ownership. It's simply labor losing power to capital again as the economy / job market has turned. CEOs see remote/hybrid as an employee benefit that is at best slightly positive to them, probably neutral, so they are cutting it. Your office lunch and generous health care plans are next.

randomdata 3y ago

> Sooner or later, the company is going to realize they can hire the same developer for 15% of the salary that the company is paying you. Only if there is some kind of downturn in the software developer market that frees up those developers from the jobs they are currently doing. Otherwise, the companies will get into bidding wars, and the price will quickly return – at which point it's a lot cheaper to keep you. It's not like companies didn't figure that out in the 1990s. It was on the news like every single day. Granted, there are signs that we may be in the midst of that downturn. But if that's the case, an office isn't going to save you. You won't be needed regardless of where you happen to be sitting.

scarface_74 3y ago

I’m in no way an introvert. Part of my day job until six months ago was flying around the country talking to people doing requirements analysis, supporting pre-sales, training, the business dinners after work small talk etc and of course some development. But I also until last year “worked for a FAANG” remotely without having to leave my medium cost of living area and a year in, I was able to move to an even cheaper area with no state income tax where the local job market sucks for my specialty. It’s a big tourist area. As far as the company outsourcing somewhere cheaper, if after all of these years I’ve been in the industry all I can do is “codez real gud” and I’m that easily replaceable, I’ve done something remarkably wrong.

steveBK123 3y ago
Exactly, outsourcing success requires stakeholders and product actually writing down what they want, and the steps they want it done in, in verbose pedantic language and then staying on top of people who overlap for 1 hour per day at best to actually stick to that plan. If you have an org capable of doing that, amazing, sounds great.. I've not seen it once, anywhere, in 20 years. So given how real orgs actually work, the problem with the outsourcing model is - Good luck turning tasks around quickly, or changing directions on a dime, or course correcting devs who do most of their work while you are asleep. If companies really wanted to save money without all the pain, they'd hire nearshore US dev talent for 1/3 the cost of NYC/SF and eliminate most of those issues. But really for most businesses given the margins on software, dev costs end up being tolerable.
- foobarian 3y ago
  > devs who do most of their work while you are asleep See, this is where Latin America comes in! There are lots of excellent devs all over Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, etc.
  - steveBK123 3y ago
    Super, but most of the rest still stands.

JTbane 3y ago

>Sooner or later, the company is going to realize they can hire the same developer for 15% of the salary that the company is paying you. Yes and no. Admittedly, I'm a full time SD in the US and I do make a decent salary, but offshoring and outsourcing don't worry me. There are many anecdotes of companies being burned by outsourcing as there is almost no accountability.

Robotbeat 3y ago
This is a problem with remote work as well, but this is waves away as a “management problem,” as if management is completely superfluous.
steveBK123 3y ago
Also I think AWS/SaaS replaced offshoring anyway. Boilerplate work gets done with commodify products. A much higher % of the work done by devs is actual real company IP than 10/20 years ago. So the question there too is - do you want to offshore your IP?

Plasmoid 3y ago

> If you are a software developer in the US, you should definitely advocate against remote work. Sooner or later, the company is going to realize they can hire the same developer for 15% of the salary that the company is paying you. This relies on a pretty common mistake, that software can really only be made in American offices. It's at least less horrific than only Americans can make good software but it's still wrong. There is no reason why a lot of software can't be made in India. There's nothing magical about Lahore than stops this from happening. Offshoring tends to fail pretty badly because companies focus exclusively on the bottom line in a globally competitive market place. If you're hiring a software engineer for $10/hr it's because their work product isn't worth $15/hr. Am I worried that my high compensation will trend downwards over time? Yeah, it's probably going to happen. Is all or most software engineering going to move to Bangalore? Not a chance.