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If starting from nothing isn’t possible, how did the top-level universe start?

Geee 3y ago
Yes, I forgot to add that there must a type of universe which can start from nothing, or exists always. Otherwise this argument doesn't make sense.
- fluoridation 3y ago
  You're contradicting yourself. If there can exist universes that can start from nothing and are not simulated then this universe could have started from nothing and not be simulated.
  - Geee 3y ago
    No. We know the laws of this universe (not perfectly yet of course). However, as far as we know, it seems that those laws don't allow it to be created from nothing. A top-level universe must have different laws. It must be something completely different than our universe. Something that allows it to either always exist or be created from nothing.
    - fluoridation 3y ago
      >those laws don't allow it to be created from nothing. What isn't allowed is for the total matter and energy within the universe to increase or decrease. But if we're talking about the creation of the universe itself along with its matter and energy, then there are no laws of physics that forbid it happening from literally nothing. The state of there being nothing is not within the scope of physics, which deals solely with what happens inside our own universe. It's like if you have an MMO where money can be neither created nor destroyed, but when the server was first booted all the money supply already existed within the world. A player seeking to explain where the money came from could not appeal to the rules of the game, because the rules only apply once the game is already running.
PrimeMcFly 3y ago
It simply always existed.
- Jensson 3y ago
  If the universe has existed for an infinite amount of time it means there has to be some process reversing entropy, events reversing entropy are about as magical as an event creating the universe from nothing so not easily believable either.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    > there has to be some process reversing entropy That's true in our universe, not necessarily in others and certainly not in a universe containing our universe.

Geee 3y ago

Yes, I forgot to add that there must a type of universe which can start from nothing, or exists always. Otherwise this argument doesn't make sense.

fluoridation 3y ago
You're contradicting yourself. If there can exist universes that can start from nothing and are not simulated then this universe could have started from nothing and not be simulated.
- Geee 3y ago
  No. We know the laws of this universe (not perfectly yet of course). However, as far as we know, it seems that those laws don't allow it to be created from nothing. A top-level universe must have different laws. It must be something completely different than our universe. Something that allows it to either always exist or be created from nothing.
  - fluoridation 3y ago
    >those laws don't allow it to be created from nothing. What isn't allowed is for the total matter and energy within the universe to increase or decrease. But if we're talking about the creation of the universe itself along with its matter and energy, then there are no laws of physics that forbid it happening from literally nothing. The state of there being nothing is not within the scope of physics, which deals solely with what happens inside our own universe. It's like if you have an MMO where money can be neither created nor destroyed, but when the server was first booted all the money supply already existed within the world. A player seeking to explain where the money came from could not appeal to the rules of the game, because the rules only apply once the game is already running.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago

It simply always existed.

Jensson 3y ago
If the universe has existed for an infinite amount of time it means there has to be some process reversing entropy, events reversing entropy are about as magical as an event creating the universe from nothing so not easily believable either.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  > there has to be some process reversing entropy That's true in our universe, not necessarily in others and certainly not in a universe containing our universe.