6 ms·

I have a feeling this has to do with AI and all the lawsuits regarding content and copyright, storing and displaying the contents of a third party website to th

by rafark 3y ago

I have a feeling this has to do with AI and all the lawsuits regarding content and copyright, storing and displaying the contents of a third party website to the end user might not be the best idea right now (I know the way back machine exists but they’re not a for profit company like google).

whamlastxmas 3y ago
Probably more to do with google hating maintaining stuff and they probably lose money showing you stale websites with stale ads instead of a live one with live ads
yreg 3y ago
I won't be surprised if Archive.org ends up getting screwed at the end of this fight.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- EGreg 3y ago
  We need a new web! MaidSAFE Freenet Hypercore
  - Aerbil313 3y ago
    MaidSAFE afaict is just another IPFS which you can pay to get your data hosted on. HyperCore apparently got acquired and they are a company seeling solutions to businesses. Freenet 2023 is a FOSS project. I'm watching the matrix server for a while. Ian says they're launching the network in 2 weeks. It is a decentralized data store + runtime. So while the original Freenet was analogous to disk, Freenet 2023 is analogous to an entire computer. See https://freenet.org/ https://freenet.org/
    - EGreg 3y ago
      MaidSAFE is far beyond either Freenet, Hypercore or IPFS. You should read their primer: https://primer.safenetwork.org/ https://primer.safenetwork.org/ It's completely uncensorable and unstoppable. They encrypt every chunk of data, using "self-encryption." They don't require a manual market for hosting (like IPFS) so people can't be intimidated into not hosting something. They even have their own implementation of the DHT which removes IP addresses after the first hop, so you can't discover the whole network and DDOS it / block it (which is not true of HyperCore, IPFS, etc.)
      - Aerbil313 3y ago
        From their website[1]: >> You're likely to want to store data on the Network. Why? Because in return for a very small one-time payment, your data will then be stored forever, encrypted and accessible anywhere in the world and only by you—unless you choose to share it. No different than IPFS. >> Safe Network Tokens are the incentive mechanism that encourages individuals to provide the computing resources that the Network requires: storage, broadband, and CPU resources. ... Individuals who choose to supply the resources that the Network requires have the opportunity to be rewarded with Safe Network Tokens. This work ensures that the Network rewards those who provide it with valuable resources. > They encrypt every chunk of data, using "self-encryption." >> Next, let's talk encryption. Imagine you want to store a photo. That data is protected by a number of layers of encryption. Your photo starts by being broken into pieces which are then encrypted with the other parts of that same file. This 'Self-Encryption' happens before the data ever hits the Network. So, unless you choose to override it, none of your data touches the Network unless it is encrypted. And it’s designed so that you're the only one that ever holds the key. If you hold the key, why bother encrypting the data with itself? TBH the entire thing reads like a new crypto. > They even have their own implementation of the DHT which removes IP addresses after the first hop, so you can't discover the whole network and DDOS it / block it (which is not true of HyperCore, IPFS, etc.) This also makes large parts of the network unreachable. Freenet achieves DDOS protection without this extreme measure[2]. It also allows development of all sorts of apps, it's not only for data storage. 1: https://safenetwork.tech/how-it-works/#where-is-data-stored https://safenetwork.tech/how-it-works/#where-is-data-stored 2: https://docs.freenet.org/examples/antiflood-tokens.html https://docs.freenet.org/examples/antiflood-tokens.html
- brianshaler 3y ago
  They already are, with content platforms clamping down on public access, with more and more content locked away behind exorbitantly expensive APIs (mostly thinking reddit and twitter here)
  - yreg 3y ago
    Yes and no. The deep web has long been much larger than the observable one. What I'm worried about is a new set of legal precedents that will make it impossible for Archive to legally rehost the content they have scraped.
cebert 3y ago
It could also be security related. I know occasionally companies accidentally make things public they didn’t intend to be public due to misconfiguration. Once this happens, those pages are available in the Google cache even when they’re no longer accessible. You can request the cached results be removed, but this takes time.
ravenstine 3y ago
I can picture future HN conversations now. "It's a good thing copyright law exists to prevent AI from doing anything useful because I'm fearful of AI." "Hey, does anyone know why the web has become so boring and useless???" Who knows – maybe Google Search won't even show page descriptions in the coming years.
- zackmorris 3y ago
  "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else." -Winston Churchill A paradox of politics is that the desire to not talk about politics favors the status quo, necessitating the need to talk about politics. It's obvious to me that AI is being rolled out in just exactly the wrong way at multiple levels, creating misaligned incentives and a perversion of original goals. But the knee-jerk reactions to it that drive the creation of draconian policies were predicted almost a century ago. It seems that everything we hold sacred is under attack in these times. The smart bet seems to be on ensh@ttification. Because the organizations that were formerly stewards of online freedom have abdicated their responsibility. I find it helpful to remember that every misstep by established players creates an opportunity for newcomers to compete.
  - MSFT_Edging 3y ago
    This is an important comment. Instead of "AI"(be real, llms and stable diffusion) being developed openly and studied without a profit motive, it's been thrust into the cheap world of VCs looking to extract any profit whatsoever from it, nearly immediately. This has caused these "AI" tools to be used to steal and rehash artists work(cheapening artists because tech bros and MBAs resent art and the time it takes to perfect). Cheapening human labor(why pay a person to understand anything when you can have an llm do 20% of the job and worse). These AI tools were thrown in the deep end with a singular purpose: Cheapen what was thought to be protected from computers, while not providing any real value to the layperson. The average person can maybe get a funny joke, a bad few lines of code, or an ugly bespoke AI image for their medium article, but the true winners are the ones cutting jobs en masse before the tech has even matured, so both the employee and the customer gets a worse product while the MBA's show a solid quarterly report after they ran a knife across their workforce's neck. Those with power and money have continued to show they will not use technology for any positive societal purpose until they are forced to with regulation. So we're forced to neuter the technology before it can really develop. It's like one child playing violently with a toy, forcing the teacher to take the toy away from everyone else.
Wowfunhappy 3y ago
Wouldn't this work in Google's favor? "AI is doing a thing which we have already been doing for most of the internet's existence; this thing is central to the internet as we know it works today." Versus "AI is doing a thing that we stopped doing proactively because we thought it might be illegal, which also means it's clearly not that important to the web, please let us keep doing it for AI training."
- MOARDONGZPLZ 3y ago
  “So as you can see esteemed jury, we’re not just copyright infringing _now_, we’ve been doing it for years! So you must acquit!”
bnegativ3 3y ago
[dead]

by rafark 3y ago

whamlastxmas 3y ago

Probably more to do with google hating maintaining stuff and they probably lose money showing you stale websites with stale ads instead of a live one with live ads

yreg 3y ago

I won't be surprised if Archive.org ends up getting screwed at the end of this fight.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
EGreg 3y ago
We need a new web! MaidSAFE Freenet Hypercore
- Aerbil313 3y ago
  MaidSAFE afaict is just another IPFS which you can pay to get your data hosted on. HyperCore apparently got acquired and they are a company seeling solutions to businesses. Freenet 2023 is a FOSS project. I'm watching the matrix server for a while. Ian says they're launching the network in 2 weeks. It is a decentralized data store + runtime. So while the original Freenet was analogous to disk, Freenet 2023 is analogous to an entire computer. See https://freenet.org/ https://freenet.org/
  - EGreg 3y ago
    MaidSAFE is far beyond either Freenet, Hypercore or IPFS. You should read their primer: https://primer.safenetwork.org/ https://primer.safenetwork.org/ It's completely uncensorable and unstoppable. They encrypt every chunk of data, using "self-encryption." They don't require a manual market for hosting (like IPFS) so people can't be intimidated into not hosting something. They even have their own implementation of the DHT which removes IP addresses after the first hop, so you can't discover the whole network and DDOS it / block it (which is not true of HyperCore, IPFS, etc.)
    - Aerbil313 3y ago
      From their website[1]: >> You're likely to want to store data on the Network. Why? Because in return for a very small one-time payment, your data will then be stored forever, encrypted and accessible anywhere in the world and only by you—unless you choose to share it. No different than IPFS. >> Safe Network Tokens are the incentive mechanism that encourages individuals to provide the computing resources that the Network requires: storage, broadband, and CPU resources. ... Individuals who choose to supply the resources that the Network requires have the opportunity to be rewarded with Safe Network Tokens. This work ensures that the Network rewards those who provide it with valuable resources. > They encrypt every chunk of data, using "self-encryption." >> Next, let's talk encryption. Imagine you want to store a photo. That data is protected by a number of layers of encryption. Your photo starts by being broken into pieces which are then encrypted with the other parts of that same file. This 'Self-Encryption' happens before the data ever hits the Network. So, unless you choose to override it, none of your data touches the Network unless it is encrypted. And it’s designed so that you're the only one that ever holds the key. If you hold the key, why bother encrypting the data with itself? TBH the entire thing reads like a new crypto. > They even have their own implementation of the DHT which removes IP addresses after the first hop, so you can't discover the whole network and DDOS it / block it (which is not true of HyperCore, IPFS, etc.) This also makes large parts of the network unreachable. Freenet achieves DDOS protection without this extreme measure[2]. It also allows development of all sorts of apps, it's not only for data storage. 1: https://safenetwork.tech/how-it-works/#where-is-data-stored https://safenetwork.tech/how-it-works/#where-is-data-stored 2: https://docs.freenet.org/examples/antiflood-tokens.html https://docs.freenet.org/examples/antiflood-tokens.html
brianshaler 3y ago
They already are, with content platforms clamping down on public access, with more and more content locked away behind exorbitantly expensive APIs (mostly thinking reddit and twitter here)
- yreg 3y ago
  Yes and no. The deep web has long been much larger than the observable one. What I'm worried about is a new set of legal precedents that will make it impossible for Archive to legally rehost the content they have scraped.

cebert 3y ago

It could also be security related. I know occasionally companies accidentally make things public they didn’t intend to be public due to misconfiguration. Once this happens, those pages are available in the Google cache even when they’re no longer accessible. You can request the cached results be removed, but this takes time.

ravenstine 3y ago

I can picture future HN conversations now. "It's a good thing copyright law exists to prevent AI from doing anything useful because I'm fearful of AI." "Hey, does anyone know why the web has become so boring and useless???" Who knows – maybe Google Search won't even show page descriptions in the coming years.

zackmorris 3y ago
"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else." -Winston Churchill A paradox of politics is that the desire to not talk about politics favors the status quo, necessitating the need to talk about politics. It's obvious to me that AI is being rolled out in just exactly the wrong way at multiple levels, creating misaligned incentives and a perversion of original goals. But the knee-jerk reactions to it that drive the creation of draconian policies were predicted almost a century ago. It seems that everything we hold sacred is under attack in these times. The smart bet seems to be on ensh@ttification. Because the organizations that were formerly stewards of online freedom have abdicated their responsibility. I find it helpful to remember that every misstep by established players creates an opportunity for newcomers to compete.
- MSFT_Edging 3y ago
  This is an important comment. Instead of "AI"(be real, llms and stable diffusion) being developed openly and studied without a profit motive, it's been thrust into the cheap world of VCs looking to extract any profit whatsoever from it, nearly immediately. This has caused these "AI" tools to be used to steal and rehash artists work(cheapening artists because tech bros and MBAs resent art and the time it takes to perfect). Cheapening human labor(why pay a person to understand anything when you can have an llm do 20% of the job and worse). These AI tools were thrown in the deep end with a singular purpose: Cheapen what was thought to be protected from computers, while not providing any real value to the layperson. The average person can maybe get a funny joke, a bad few lines of code, or an ugly bespoke AI image for their medium article, but the true winners are the ones cutting jobs en masse before the tech has even matured, so both the employee and the customer gets a worse product while the MBA's show a solid quarterly report after they ran a knife across their workforce's neck. Those with power and money have continued to show they will not use technology for any positive societal purpose until they are forced to with regulation. So we're forced to neuter the technology before it can really develop. It's like one child playing violently with a toy, forcing the teacher to take the toy away from everyone else.

Wowfunhappy 3y ago

Wouldn't this work in Google's favor? "AI is doing a thing which we have already been doing for most of the internet's existence; this thing is central to the internet as we know it works today." Versus "AI is doing a thing that we stopped doing proactively because we thought it might be illegal, which also means it's clearly not that important to the web, please let us keep doing it for AI training."

MOARDONGZPLZ 3y ago
“So as you can see esteemed jury, we’re not just copyright infringing _now_, we’ve been doing it for years! So you must acquit!”

bnegativ3 3y ago

[dead]