4 ms·

The golden rule has a serious problem of enabling sociopaths. Only help people worth helping.

by alecco 15y ago

drumdance 15y ago
Meh. Only something like 5% of the population is sociopathic. As long as you take reasonable precautions, it's okay to treat most people you meet as if they're one of the other 95%.
- alecco 15y ago
  Sociopaths drive people into cynicism.
  - pygy_ 15y ago
    I've had to work with sociopaths, and being used and abused ain't fun. But I hope you'll get over it. For sure, cynicism, won't bring you happiness.
    - alecco 15y ago
      I never proposed cynicism! I clearly say you should be mindful who you help. That's it.
      - pygy_ 15y ago
        It's always hard to get the tone of a forum message. I thought that the contact of sociopath brought you to cynicism. Obviously, I was wrong.
jwb119 15y ago
you're making some pretty big assumptions that: 1) you can actually tell who is worth helping 2) even if the golden rule does enable sociopaths, that the overall benefits don't outweigh that downside
- alecco 15y ago
  1) It's very easy to tell if you pay attention. Selfish people are trivial to spot. Also those who sweet talk others with compliments to use them and move on afterwards. 2) How do you know? Sociopaths break the trust of people and can easily break a working system. A classic real anecdote of mine: We were about 100 people in a very large open space office. The vast majority of us were normal or nice. But two selfish idiots kept stealing/hoarding anything that was freely available. From coffee cups and plastic cutlery to toilet paper. This drove everyone to hoard all those resources, creating a bigger problem and masking the original culprits. My point is a tiny fraction of the population can easily break a healthy system/society. Don't underestimate this.
  - ekanes 15y ago
    A healthy system has a way of ejecting unhealthy influences. As in, "stop this crap or we're going to have to let you go."
    - alecco 15y ago
      You have to find them first. Most sociopaths take abuse as a full time job and usually are very good at hiding or excusing themselves. Sometimes they just say they're sorry, stop doing it for a while, but later resuming their original behaviour with some adaptation.
      - PakG1 15y ago
        I don't see you responding very well to jwb's argument. You made a statement that the Golden Rule enables sociopaths. jwb made a counterstatement that your statement makes some assumptions that are not necessarily true. You address the first assumption with some logic and an anecdote of your own, but you by no means address the second, which seems to be the more important one. Instead, you seem to (and if I'm misinterpreting you here, I'm sorry, but I see no other way to read it) say that the second assumption jwb pointed out is irrelevant because your anecdote demonstrates that the power of the horrible few can be larger by orders of magnitude. Not that I'm good at analogies, but it's like saying cats are absolutely horrible because 1 cat you used to have made 10 dogs go wild, while jwb is saying that whatever trouble cats may cause in our world, the world is still better off for having them. And then ekanes responded to you with a statement that also reflects my own life experience. I can't think of a single time in my life when a small or large group of people have been unable to identify such similar culprits and then either reform or eject them. Aside from the fact that 1 anecdote does not a study make, I feel you're falling prey to anchoring bias, attentional bias, insensitivity to sample size, and belief bias all in one (the belief bias being the most ironic, given what appears to be your antagonism towards people of faith). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases edit: better word arrangement
lancefisher 15y ago
People like to argue against the golden rule, saying that if you are deranged, it gives you license to hurt others. First, this is an edge case. Second, it is out of context. The golden rule was given by Jesus secondary to the command "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." If you follow both those commands, you'll only do good to your fellow man.
- getsat 15y ago
  The greatest commandment was two parts: what you said + "love your neighbor as yourself". The golden rule is kind of redundant if you follow greatest commandment. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22&version=NIV#en-NIV-23907 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22&v... This is the best chapter in the entire Bible IMO. It's funny how many Christian couples think they'll still be married in Heaven.
- alecco 15y ago
  Your comment is wrong in so many levels it isn't worth refuting. And you sound like a brainwashed individual who won't listen to reason, anyway.
- alecco 15y ago
  > People like to argue against the golden rule, saying that if you are deranged, it gives you license to hurt others. You are shifting the argument. That has nothing to do with my comment. Straw man fallacy. > The golden rule was given by Jesus secondary to the command "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." No, in the christian bible it says a man named Jesus gave a new commandment. The "Golden Rule" is a generalization made in more recent times to try to find a common ground across religions. And it's very vague as many religions are closer to what's named as the "Silver Rule". > If you follow both those commands, you'll only do good to your fellow man. That's not on the bible and even if it were, it's your dogma book. You provide me no proof it is that way. Not even a decent hypothesis.
  - sophacles 15y ago
jasonwatkinspdx 15y ago
Neglecting abusers perpetuates abuse.

The golden rule has a serious problem of enabling sociopaths. Only help people worth helping.

by alecco 15y ago

The golden rule has a serious problem of enabling sociopaths. Only help people worth helping.

Meh. Only something like 5% of the population is sociopathic. As long as you take reasonable precautions, it's okay to treat most people you meet as if they're one of the other 95%.

alecco 15y ago
Sociopaths drive people into cynicism.
- pygy_ 15y ago
  I've had to work with sociopaths, and being used and abused ain't fun. But I hope you'll get over it. For sure, cynicism, won't bring you happiness.
  - alecco 15y ago
    I never proposed cynicism! I clearly say you should be mindful who you help. That's it.
    - pygy_ 15y ago
      It's always hard to get the tone of a forum message. I thought that the contact of sociopath brought you to cynicism. Obviously, I was wrong.

jwb119 15y ago

you're making some pretty big assumptions that: 1) you can actually tell who is worth helping 2) even if the golden rule does enable sociopaths, that the overall benefits don't outweigh that downside

alecco 15y ago
1) It's very easy to tell if you pay attention. Selfish people are trivial to spot. Also those who sweet talk others with compliments to use them and move on afterwards. 2) How do you know? Sociopaths break the trust of people and can easily break a working system. A classic real anecdote of mine: We were about 100 people in a very large open space office. The vast majority of us were normal or nice. But two selfish idiots kept stealing/hoarding anything that was freely available. From coffee cups and plastic cutlery to toilet paper. This drove everyone to hoard all those resources, creating a bigger problem and masking the original culprits. My point is a tiny fraction of the population can easily break a healthy system/society. Don't underestimate this.
- ekanes 15y ago
  A healthy system has a way of ejecting unhealthy influences. As in, "stop this crap or we're going to have to let you go."
  - alecco 15y ago
    You have to find them first. Most sociopaths take abuse as a full time job and usually are very good at hiding or excusing themselves. Sometimes they just say they're sorry, stop doing it for a while, but later resuming their original behaviour with some adaptation.
    - PakG1 15y ago
      I don't see you responding very well to jwb's argument. You made a statement that the Golden Rule enables sociopaths. jwb made a counterstatement that your statement makes some assumptions that are not necessarily true. You address the first assumption with some logic and an anecdote of your own, but you by no means address the second, which seems to be the more important one. Instead, you seem to (and if I'm misinterpreting you here, I'm sorry, but I see no other way to read it) say that the second assumption jwb pointed out is irrelevant because your anecdote demonstrates that the power of the horrible few can be larger by orders of magnitude. Not that I'm good at analogies, but it's like saying cats are absolutely horrible because 1 cat you used to have made 10 dogs go wild, while jwb is saying that whatever trouble cats may cause in our world, the world is still better off for having them. And then ekanes responded to you with a statement that also reflects my own life experience. I can't think of a single time in my life when a small or large group of people have been unable to identify such similar culprits and then either reform or eject them. Aside from the fact that 1 anecdote does not a study make, I feel you're falling prey to anchoring bias, attentional bias, insensitivity to sample size, and belief bias all in one (the belief bias being the most ironic, given what appears to be your antagonism towards people of faith). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases edit: better word arrangement

lancefisher 15y ago

People like to argue against the golden rule, saying that if you are deranged, it gives you license to hurt others. First, this is an edge case. Second, it is out of context. The golden rule was given by Jesus secondary to the command "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." If you follow both those commands, you'll only do good to your fellow man.

getsat 15y ago
The greatest commandment was two parts: what you said + "love your neighbor as yourself". The golden rule is kind of redundant if you follow greatest commandment. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22&version=NIV#en-NIV-23907 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22&v... This is the best chapter in the entire Bible IMO. It's funny how many Christian couples think they'll still be married in Heaven.
alecco 15y ago
Your comment is wrong in so many levels it isn't worth refuting. And you sound like a brainwashed individual who won't listen to reason, anyway.
alecco 15y ago
> People like to argue against the golden rule, saying that if you are deranged, it gives you license to hurt others. You are shifting the argument. That has nothing to do with my comment. Straw man fallacy. > The golden rule was given by Jesus secondary to the command "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." No, in the christian bible it says a man named Jesus gave a new commandment. The "Golden Rule" is a generalization made in more recent times to try to find a common ground across religions. And it's very vague as many religions are closer to what's named as the "Silver Rule". > If you follow both those commands, you'll only do good to your fellow man. That's not on the bible and even if it were, it's your dogma book. You provide me no proof it is that way. Not even a decent hypothesis.
- sophacles 15y ago

jasonwatkinspdx 15y ago

Neglecting abusers perpetuates abuse.