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> if you want to use your actual Mac it can't do multiple monitors lol, literally the only use case I could convince myself to spend this money on (hey its che

> if you want to use your actual Mac it can't do multiple monitors lol, literally the only use case I could convince myself to spend this money on (hey its cheaper than an XDR ). Even then I was having trouble convincing myself since.. all indications were you wouldn't want to wear this more than a few hours at a time, so ultimately you still need the real physical monitors for the other 80% of your workday.

verdverm 3y ago
Keep an eye on Immersed.com, they have an app that does this with a slew of VR devices, and I expect they will support Vision Pro if they can. They also have the Visor.com that is supposed to release later this year
wkat4242 3y ago
Instead of having multiple virtual screens I would prefer a lot more if I could simply spread individual Mac windows around my virtual space. In mixed reality the whole concept of a virtual monitor makes no sense, it's just an unnecessarily limiting abstraction you could easily do without. The whole room is your "desktop". It's basically what the SimulaVR guys are aiming at, and I'm surprised Apple didn't go this way with their Mac integration. Especially because the native visionOS apps do seem to behave just that way.
- slg 3y ago
  But what is your actual physical work environment like then? Are you standing in the middle of the room and typing into air? I always imagined productivity minded people would still at least use a physical keyboard which limits mobility.
  - SirHound 3y ago
    No you’d be sitting at a desk with a mouse and keyboard, like today
    - slg 3y ago
      But that isn't 'The whole room is your "desktop".' If you are restricted to having your desk in front of you, you might as well be looking at virtual screen(s) on your desk.
      - wkat4242 3y ago
        Of course you could hang the displays freely into space as you can now with the existing Vision Pro apps. You'd hang the productivity ones close to your desk but some of them you could hang in other places and use a virtual keyboard.
      - wahnfrieden 3y ago
        I’d be sitting on my couch with my wireless Glove80 split keyboard at my sides. Or lying down with the keyboard flanking me. No desk. And I’d move the keyboard to my counter to stand when I feel like it.
        Bedon292 3y ago
        I was thinking something similar. Split ergonomic keyboard wherever you are. Could possibly do something to stick them to legs wherever it comfortable for standing. I had not seen the Glove80 before, it does look pretty nice. Though I would prefer a bit smaller. I don't really use F keys, and use layers for things like arrow keys.
        wahnfrieden 3y ago
        Glove80 is smaller than the only alternative that suits me, Kinesis Advantage. Agree even smaller would be nice. There are many options if you don’t require the key well shape or if more DIY kits/production quality are up your alley Glove80 has hot-swappable tripod mounts, so I attach it to my chair, or I use clamps to attach it to a table, or to short tripods standing on the floor, or to very tiny tripods that can give the keyboards an extreme near-vertical angle on a desktop. Very easy to get an ergo setup going when traveling this way.
- kalleboo 3y ago
  I don't think Apple wants you to use Mac apps. They want developers to make Vision Pro apps. That's why the Mac integration is the minimum they could get away with.
  - yellow_postit 3y ago
    VisionOS is pretty limited right now and seems like a much larger leap to justify that iPad vs iOS was.
  - jc_dc 3y ago
    Good luck with that. Devs made the iPhone a hit and Apple demonized them over it. Can’t imagine too many are eager to make the same mistake twice.
    - freedomben 3y ago
      There are enough devs that love Apple and have a burning loyalty toward them, that this is not something I would worry about. Even if it started to become a problem, Apple has enough cash to make a lot of apps, and could subsidize this for an eternity if necessary to make it work. Apps will not be a problem.
      - jc_dc 3y ago
        Depends on what they want it to be. For sure there will be some hardcore indies that just love developing for vr. There will probably be some game studios ready to go. TikTok will probably be there. But, why would Netflix, Spotify, every productivity tool…go out of their way to work on this thing at a time where most are diving deeper into PWA’s? For spatial computing, they’re going to need to improve the dev situation or accept that safari is the star of the show.
        freedomben 3y ago
        Do you think Netflix and Spotify are really needed (genuinely wondering)? Netflix maybe because of exclusives, but I would think most people with Vision Pro are also going to have Apple Music. With their TV and Music offerings, it might actually be better not to have Netflix/Spotify etc.
- klausa 3y ago
  I imagine it's mostly a CPU/battery/bandwidth concern at this point — having one wireless 4.5k/60 (or is it 90?) stream from your Mac is difficult enough; having a potentially unbound number of them (for arbitrary number of Mac windows open) is a different problem altogether. But there are 3rd party solutions that will let you do just that though: https://github.com/saagarjha/Ensemble https://github.com/saagarjha/Ensemble
  - huytersd 3y ago
    This is it exactly. I’m surprised the HN crowd isn’t immediately picking up the bandwidth issues with streaming unlimited 4k screens from your MacBook.
    - deutschepost 3y ago
      Noted that this would be a non issue if you could just connect a cable between your Mac and the Vision. You already have the huge battery pack dangling off the side. This is an apple issue, not a technical one.
      - saagarjha 3y ago
        I think Apple sees a device that doesn't have any cables in the near future; they just weren't able to pull it off this time.
        wahnfrieden 3y ago
        It’s the product vision. But progress is slow reportedly because of physical and current scientific tech limits. Their product vision could take another 10-30 years.
      - klausa 3y ago
        Not really? Do the math of how much bandwidth like three windows/screens (because with this model each window is basically its own screen) at 4K/100hz/10bit color each would take. You're at limits of TB4 _very quickly_. You can compress the image, try to do something smart with foveated rendering (only stream the windows that users are looking at; but that breaks if you want to keep a window with logs in your peripheral vision), use chroma subsampling, etc; but those all are varying trade-offs with relation to image quality.
- nox101 3y ago
  I know the implementation needs a lot to be desired but just in case you were not aware, the Oculus Rift shipped with this feature and it still exists via the link on Quest AFAIK. You pick the last icon on the UI bar that appears and it lets you select any window to pop out separately Here's a screenshot of 4 windows plus the deskop. https://pasteboard.co/hPKLrKgp5vjy.jpg https://pasteboard.co/hPKLrKgp5vjy.jpg This features has been there for nearly 9 years? (note: In my view there was passthrough and I could see my room but the screenshot function didn't include that). It seems limited to desktop + 4 popout windows but I know it used to support more because when I first got the Rift I tried to see if I could get 6 videos running + desktop all at once. It worked. There are issues though (1) it's just showing the desktop's image, that means it can't adjust the resolution of the window. Ideally you'd pick a devicePixelRatio and a resolution and it would re-render but no desktop OS is designed to do that. (2) It's Microsoft Windows, not an OS that Facebook controls which means they're at Microsoft's mercy and whatever features Windows supports. No easy way to add better VR controls. For example, IIRC, you can't size a window directly. Instead you need go to the window showing the full desktop, size it there, that will then be reflected in the popout window. If that's not clear, there are 2 size. The size in VR. The resolution of the window. If the window is a tiny 320x240 pixel window on your desktop and you make it 5x3 meters in your virtual space, all Oculus can do is draw those 320x240 pixels. You can go back to your desktop, size the window to 1237x841, now Oculus can draw those 1237x841 to your 5x3 meter VR pane. But, since Oculus doesn't control windows (or maybe they're lazy), there is no way change from 320x240 to 1237x841 by directly manipulating the pane in VR. Instead you need to do that in the desktop pane in VR. (3) IIRC it's got some weird issues with the active window. Since it's really just grabbing the textures of the Windows OS compositor and showing then in different spaces, that's separate from Windows' itself's concept of which window is the foreground window. So, as you select windows, you can see on the floating window of the "desktop" the front window keeps changing. These are all really just a function of (2), that Facebook doesn't own the desktop OS. The same problem would exist with the Mac. Apple, since they control Mac, could maybe make it work but it would be a huge change to MacOS. They'd effectively need each app to run on its own screen and each screen to be a different resolution and device pixel ratio. Plus they'd need to map in all of the other features to mac MacOS to be usable in AR
  - 3y ago
- azulster 3y ago
  this is how microsoft's remote desktop protocol works (RDP) but apple never invested in their implementation of something similar, relying on vnc to just send images of the entire screen. the way RDP works is the code to actually render a window or desktop gets sent over the network and is ONLY rendered on the remote client. this is not only more efficient but also allows for fun things like rendering remote apps directly on your local desktop mixed in with your normal local windows
derefr 3y ago
> all indications were you wouldn't want to wear this more than a few hours at a time I think all the wear comes if you’re sitting up wearing it, though. For passive consumption (or thinking between moments of work), you can just lean back or even lay down, which will take the pressure off your head/face.

verdverm 3y ago

Keep an eye on Immersed.com, they have an app that does this with a slew of VR devices, and I expect they will support Vision Pro if they can. They also have the Visor.com that is supposed to release later this year

wkat4242 3y ago

Instead of having multiple virtual screens I would prefer a lot more if I could simply spread individual Mac windows around my virtual space. In mixed reality the whole concept of a virtual monitor makes no sense, it's just an unnecessarily limiting abstraction you could easily do without. The whole room is your "desktop". It's basically what the SimulaVR guys are aiming at, and I'm surprised Apple didn't go this way with their Mac integration. Especially because the native visionOS apps do seem to behave just that way.

slg 3y ago
But what is your actual physical work environment like then? Are you standing in the middle of the room and typing into air? I always imagined productivity minded people would still at least use a physical keyboard which limits mobility.
- SirHound 3y ago
  No you’d be sitting at a desk with a mouse and keyboard, like today
  - slg 3y ago
    But that isn't 'The whole room is your "desktop".' If you are restricted to having your desk in front of you, you might as well be looking at virtual screen(s) on your desk.
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      Of course you could hang the displays freely into space as you can now with the existing Vision Pro apps. You'd hang the productivity ones close to your desk but some of them you could hang in other places and use a virtual keyboard.
    - wahnfrieden 3y ago
      I’d be sitting on my couch with my wireless Glove80 split keyboard at my sides. Or lying down with the keyboard flanking me. No desk. And I’d move the keyboard to my counter to stand when I feel like it.
      - Bedon292 3y ago
        I was thinking something similar. Split ergonomic keyboard wherever you are. Could possibly do something to stick them to legs wherever it comfortable for standing. I had not seen the Glove80 before, it does look pretty nice. Though I would prefer a bit smaller. I don't really use F keys, and use layers for things like arrow keys.
        wahnfrieden 3y ago
        Glove80 is smaller than the only alternative that suits me, Kinesis Advantage. Agree even smaller would be nice. There are many options if you don’t require the key well shape or if more DIY kits/production quality are up your alley Glove80 has hot-swappable tripod mounts, so I attach it to my chair, or I use clamps to attach it to a table, or to short tripods standing on the floor, or to very tiny tripods that can give the keyboards an extreme near-vertical angle on a desktop. Very easy to get an ergo setup going when traveling this way.
kalleboo 3y ago
I don't think Apple wants you to use Mac apps. They want developers to make Vision Pro apps. That's why the Mac integration is the minimum they could get away with.
- yellow_postit 3y ago
  VisionOS is pretty limited right now and seems like a much larger leap to justify that iPad vs iOS was.
- jc_dc 3y ago
  Good luck with that. Devs made the iPhone a hit and Apple demonized them over it. Can’t imagine too many are eager to make the same mistake twice.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    There are enough devs that love Apple and have a burning loyalty toward them, that this is not something I would worry about. Even if it started to become a problem, Apple has enough cash to make a lot of apps, and could subsidize this for an eternity if necessary to make it work. Apps will not be a problem.
    - jc_dc 3y ago
      Depends on what they want it to be. For sure there will be some hardcore indies that just love developing for vr. There will probably be some game studios ready to go. TikTok will probably be there. But, why would Netflix, Spotify, every productivity tool…go out of their way to work on this thing at a time where most are diving deeper into PWA’s? For spatial computing, they’re going to need to improve the dev situation or accept that safari is the star of the show.
      - freedomben 3y ago
        Do you think Netflix and Spotify are really needed (genuinely wondering)? Netflix maybe because of exclusives, but I would think most people with Vision Pro are also going to have Apple Music. With their TV and Music offerings, it might actually be better not to have Netflix/Spotify etc.
klausa 3y ago
I imagine it's mostly a CPU/battery/bandwidth concern at this point — having one wireless 4.5k/60 (or is it 90?) stream from your Mac is difficult enough; having a potentially unbound number of them (for arbitrary number of Mac windows open) is a different problem altogether. But there are 3rd party solutions that will let you do just that though: https://github.com/saagarjha/Ensemble https://github.com/saagarjha/Ensemble
- huytersd 3y ago
  This is it exactly. I’m surprised the HN crowd isn’t immediately picking up the bandwidth issues with streaming unlimited 4k screens from your MacBook.
  - deutschepost 3y ago
    Noted that this would be a non issue if you could just connect a cable between your Mac and the Vision. You already have the huge battery pack dangling off the side. This is an apple issue, not a technical one.
    - saagarjha 3y ago
      I think Apple sees a device that doesn't have any cables in the near future; they just weren't able to pull it off this time.
      - wahnfrieden 3y ago
        It’s the product vision. But progress is slow reportedly because of physical and current scientific tech limits. Their product vision could take another 10-30 years.
    - klausa 3y ago
      Not really? Do the math of how much bandwidth like three windows/screens (because with this model each window is basically its own screen) at 4K/100hz/10bit color each would take. You're at limits of TB4 _very quickly_. You can compress the image, try to do something smart with foveated rendering (only stream the windows that users are looking at; but that breaks if you want to keep a window with logs in your peripheral vision), use chroma subsampling, etc; but those all are varying trade-offs with relation to image quality.
nox101 3y ago
I know the implementation needs a lot to be desired but just in case you were not aware, the Oculus Rift shipped with this feature and it still exists via the link on Quest AFAIK. You pick the last icon on the UI bar that appears and it lets you select any window to pop out separately Here's a screenshot of 4 windows plus the deskop. https://pasteboard.co/hPKLrKgp5vjy.jpg https://pasteboard.co/hPKLrKgp5vjy.jpg This features has been there for nearly 9 years? (note: In my view there was passthrough and I could see my room but the screenshot function didn't include that). It seems limited to desktop + 4 popout windows but I know it used to support more because when I first got the Rift I tried to see if I could get 6 videos running + desktop all at once. It worked. There are issues though (1) it's just showing the desktop's image, that means it can't adjust the resolution of the window. Ideally you'd pick a devicePixelRatio and a resolution and it would re-render but no desktop OS is designed to do that. (2) It's Microsoft Windows, not an OS that Facebook controls which means they're at Microsoft's mercy and whatever features Windows supports. No easy way to add better VR controls. For example, IIRC, you can't size a window directly. Instead you need go to the window showing the full desktop, size it there, that will then be reflected in the popout window. If that's not clear, there are 2 size. The size in VR. The resolution of the window. If the window is a tiny 320x240 pixel window on your desktop and you make it 5x3 meters in your virtual space, all Oculus can do is draw those 320x240 pixels. You can go back to your desktop, size the window to 1237x841, now Oculus can draw those 1237x841 to your 5x3 meter VR pane. But, since Oculus doesn't control windows (or maybe they're lazy), there is no way change from 320x240 to 1237x841 by directly manipulating the pane in VR. Instead you need to do that in the desktop pane in VR. (3) IIRC it's got some weird issues with the active window. Since it's really just grabbing the textures of the Windows OS compositor and showing then in different spaces, that's separate from Windows' itself's concept of which window is the foreground window. So, as you select windows, you can see on the floating window of the "desktop" the front window keeps changing. These are all really just a function of (2), that Facebook doesn't own the desktop OS. The same problem would exist with the Mac. Apple, since they control Mac, could maybe make it work but it would be a huge change to MacOS. They'd effectively need each app to run on its own screen and each screen to be a different resolution and device pixel ratio. Plus they'd need to map in all of the other features to mac MacOS to be usable in AR
- 3y ago
azulster 3y ago
this is how microsoft's remote desktop protocol works (RDP) but apple never invested in their implementation of something similar, relying on vnc to just send images of the entire screen. the way RDP works is the code to actually render a window or desktop gets sent over the network and is ONLY rendered on the remote client. this is not only more efficient but also allows for fun things like rendering remote apps directly on your local desktop mixed in with your normal local windows

derefr 3y ago

> all indications were you wouldn't want to wear this more than a few hours at a time I think all the wear comes if you’re sitting up wearing it, though. For passive consumption (or thinking between moments of work), you can just lean back or even lay down, which will take the pressure off your head/face.