5 ms·

Why would anybody need to buy 12 liters of milk when the store is 5-10 mins away on foot? Reality in a lot of european cities is fundamentally different to mos

by Mawr 3y ago

Why would anybody need to buy 12 liters of milk when the store is 5-10 mins away on foot? Reality in a lot of european cities is fundamentally different to most of the US.

ajsnigrutin 3y ago
Because I don't want to go to store every two days, and the prices in local small stores are higher than in a larger, discount store. I buy a pack of milk, and I'm good for a month.
- throwaway3563 3y ago
  The big box discount store (which demands that customers buy in bulk to save money, and because it is so far away from you that you can ONLY visit it once per month) is as much a product of US style suburban sprawl, as car-dependency is.
- adrianN 3y ago
  Where I live the prices at local stores are pretty much the same as at the bigger stores farther away.
- imgabe 3y ago
  I guess you're getting shelf stable milk instead of fresh milk? Milk is not supposed to last for a month.
  - JoshTriplett 3y ago
    Isn't modern technology grand? See also pasteurization, canning, pickling, and many many other technologies that help food last longer. Why should people care what something is "supposed to" do? Many kinds of food are "supposed to" spoil quickly, but we've gone to great lengths to overcome that. (For clarity in case there is a nomenclature difference here, UHT milk is shelf-stable liquid milk that's entirely equivalent to any milk but lasts much longer before expiring. That's separate from things like evaporated milk or powdered milk, which are also substitutes for milk but not directly equivalent.)
    - bluGill 3y ago
      UHT milk does not taste like fresh milk. Sure it is safe for months, but it isn't good for months. I once was at a farmers place - when they were done milking the cows in the morning they brought milk in from the tank for breakfast - ever since then I can't drink store bought milk as fresh milk tastes so much better. (the milk was also unpasteurized, I believe fresh was the key to taste but I'm not sure)
      - JoshTriplett 3y ago
        I'd argue the difference between UHT milk and standard pasteurized milk is much smaller than the difference between either and fresh milk, and most people don't buy fresh milk (or want to). But in any case, it's good that multiple options exist.
      - ajsnigrutin 3y ago
        Sure, but I mostly need milk for coffee, and sometimes for stuff like puddings, so a liter of milk either lasts a week, or I just need two liters right now for a unplanned batch of pudding/milk rice/etc. UHT is good enough for both. I don't drink milk directly.
  - ajsnigrutin 3y ago
    UHT pasteurised milk. The one I have at home now has an expiration date in late june.
- PeterisP 3y ago
  In a walkable city you go by a store every time you go outside - you come back from work, you pass by a store or two where you can buy fresh groceries. This has also an impact on healthy diet, giving access to fresh goods which wouldn't possibly last a month and thus wouldn't get eaten if people drive shopping every few weeks.
  - JoshTriplett 3y ago
    > In a walkable city you go by a store every time you go outside I'm all for designing for walkability, but this is a case study in failing to understand audiences. If you make this not just a possibility but a requirement of walkable cities, many people won't want to live in your "walkable" cities at all. There are much better arguments possible here. For instance, you could promote CSAs for regularly delivered farm-fresh produce, or establish efficient grocery delivery services that use one vehicle to deliver to many many customers, or other potential options that don't involve regular car trips for grocery shopping and don't involve spending an appreciable fraction of your day shopping.
    - mlsu 3y ago
      If you don't want to live in a walkable area boy have I got great news for you. Close your eyes and point at the map!
      - JoshTriplett 3y ago
        I would love to live in a walkable area. I would like people designing walkable areas to not make assumptions like "Oh, everyone will love shopping several times a week, just like I do!". (Or worse, "I don't enjoy this myself but I'm sure other people will!", which is a common failure mode.) Let's not have a false dichotomy that assumes everyone who wants to live somewhere walkable also enjoys running errands and wants to do it more often.
    - nerb 3y ago
      > don't involve spending an appreciable fraction of your day shopping. if you're concerned about how your time is spent, i think you're missing a fundamental piece of the puzzle: how much time you spend driving. you could end up saving an enormous amount of time while still going out to shop more if you cut out driving and reduce the scope of your trips.
n_ary 3y ago
> Reality in a lot of european cities is fundamentally different to most of the US. I am not sure about which european city you are in. Here in Germany, there are more cars than people. Infact, there is so much parking shortage that, people walk 10 minutes away to park their cars, because the streets are already full. Also, I don't know anyone going to store daily, most people shop en-mass over the weekend, mostly Saturday afternoon. Only people I see regularly on the malls near me are just retired oma/opa but they also shop like every 4-5 days. That being said, while at least in the city I am in, has the most connected and excellent public transport, somehow I have to take a reverse de-tour by bus on my way to work, because bus routes are not often straight forward and there are only specific limited routes I can take, unless I can find a place near some U/S-bahn station(immensely difficult these days due to housing crisis). If I had a car, I could reduce my daily commute to work by 2.5h, but then again, I don't have strict on-site requirements, so it doesn't matter.

by Mawr 3y ago

Why would anybody need to buy 12 liters of milk when the store is 5-10 mins away on foot? Reality in a lot of european cities is fundamentally different to most of the US.

ajsnigrutin 3y ago

Because I don't want to go to store every two days, and the prices in local small stores are higher than in a larger, discount store. I buy a pack of milk, and I'm good for a month.

throwaway3563 3y ago
The big box discount store (which demands that customers buy in bulk to save money, and because it is so far away from you that you can ONLY visit it once per month) is as much a product of US style suburban sprawl, as car-dependency is.
adrianN 3y ago
Where I live the prices at local stores are pretty much the same as at the bigger stores farther away.
imgabe 3y ago
I guess you're getting shelf stable milk instead of fresh milk? Milk is not supposed to last for a month.
- JoshTriplett 3y ago
  Isn't modern technology grand? See also pasteurization, canning, pickling, and many many other technologies that help food last longer. Why should people care what something is "supposed to" do? Many kinds of food are "supposed to" spoil quickly, but we've gone to great lengths to overcome that. (For clarity in case there is a nomenclature difference here, UHT milk is shelf-stable liquid milk that's entirely equivalent to any milk but lasts much longer before expiring. That's separate from things like evaporated milk or powdered milk, which are also substitutes for milk but not directly equivalent.)
  - bluGill 3y ago
    UHT milk does not taste like fresh milk. Sure it is safe for months, but it isn't good for months. I once was at a farmers place - when they were done milking the cows in the morning they brought milk in from the tank for breakfast - ever since then I can't drink store bought milk as fresh milk tastes so much better. (the milk was also unpasteurized, I believe fresh was the key to taste but I'm not sure)
    - JoshTriplett 3y ago
      I'd argue the difference between UHT milk and standard pasteurized milk is much smaller than the difference between either and fresh milk, and most people don't buy fresh milk (or want to). But in any case, it's good that multiple options exist.
    - ajsnigrutin 3y ago
      Sure, but I mostly need milk for coffee, and sometimes for stuff like puddings, so a liter of milk either lasts a week, or I just need two liters right now for a unplanned batch of pudding/milk rice/etc. UHT is good enough for both. I don't drink milk directly.
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago
  UHT pasteurised milk. The one I have at home now has an expiration date in late june.
PeterisP 3y ago
In a walkable city you go by a store every time you go outside - you come back from work, you pass by a store or two where you can buy fresh groceries. This has also an impact on healthy diet, giving access to fresh goods which wouldn't possibly last a month and thus wouldn't get eaten if people drive shopping every few weeks.
- JoshTriplett 3y ago
  > In a walkable city you go by a store every time you go outside I'm all for designing for walkability, but this is a case study in failing to understand audiences. If you make this not just a possibility but a requirement of walkable cities, many people won't want to live in your "walkable" cities at all. There are much better arguments possible here. For instance, you could promote CSAs for regularly delivered farm-fresh produce, or establish efficient grocery delivery services that use one vehicle to deliver to many many customers, or other potential options that don't involve regular car trips for grocery shopping and don't involve spending an appreciable fraction of your day shopping.
  - mlsu 3y ago
    If you don't want to live in a walkable area boy have I got great news for you. Close your eyes and point at the map!
    - JoshTriplett 3y ago
      I would love to live in a walkable area. I would like people designing walkable areas to not make assumptions like "Oh, everyone will love shopping several times a week, just like I do!". (Or worse, "I don't enjoy this myself but I'm sure other people will!", which is a common failure mode.) Let's not have a false dichotomy that assumes everyone who wants to live somewhere walkable also enjoys running errands and wants to do it more often.
  - nerb 3y ago
    > don't involve spending an appreciable fraction of your day shopping. if you're concerned about how your time is spent, i think you're missing a fundamental piece of the puzzle: how much time you spend driving. you could end up saving an enormous amount of time while still going out to shop more if you cut out driving and reduce the scope of your trips.

n_ary 3y ago

> Reality in a lot of european cities is fundamentally different to most of the US. I am not sure about which european city you are in. Here in Germany, there are more cars than people. Infact, there is so much parking shortage that, people walk 10 minutes away to park their cars, because the streets are already full. Also, I don't know anyone going to store daily, most people shop en-mass over the weekend, mostly Saturday afternoon. Only people I see regularly on the malls near me are just retired oma/opa but they also shop like every 4-5 days. That being said, while at least in the city I am in, has the most connected and excellent public transport, somehow I have to take a reverse de-tour by bus on my way to work, because bus routes are not often straight forward and there are only specific limited routes I can take, unless I can find a place near some U/S-bahn station(immensely difficult these days due to housing crisis). If I had a car, I could reduce my daily commute to work by 2.5h, but then again, I don't have strict on-site requirements, so it doesn't matter.