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> About the only thing I know for sure is students from Stanford and MIT are in general more capable than those from a community college, people with degrees fr

by evoxed 14y ago

> About the only thing I know for sure is students from Stanford and MIT are in general more capable than those from a community college, people with degrees from online for-profit colleges like U. Phoenix and CIS degrees from anywhere can be relied on to not know enough to perform. Yet this statement completely undermines your point. I graduated from community college instead of going to high school, and now wherever I go I get dirty looks for having some random "fake" school next to a top-ranked one. I've been flat out rejected by people who stated that "[they] know what community college portfolios look like", without knowing the whole story. As much as I wish credits and degrees didn't matter, this is not universally true in application. In fact the less they matter on their own, the more accessible they should become! It doesn't force anyone to lower their standards. That is why sooner or later, the credits will matter.

pessimizer 14y ago
He didn't add in community college with for-profit fake college ("people who can be relied on not to know enough to perform"), he just said that students from Stanford and MIT are generally more capable. You went to community college, like I did (for the entire first half of my university career - Oakton Community College represent!), so you can't think that's a completely unreasonable statement. OCC certainly wasn't MIT, but it was a place where you could learn a lot of your undergrad math. Not to say that you won't find people that will dismiss you out of hand, but you'll find that if you're black, or from out of state, or went to Yale instead of Harvard or Harvard instead of Yale - depending on the person you're talking to. Some people have really horrible quality heuristics:) But he's not doing it.
- evoxed 14y ago
  It could be 100% accurate but I still don't think it does anything to help the argument that a degree/credits shouldn't matter. I've gotten used to people requiring an explanation for a degree from TXCC, but frankly some of those top-school grads could probably do some explaining too after seeing some of the portfolios that come in... I wish I could compare to MIT but since I have no acquaintances there, I can only draw comparisons between a few programs in art and design (philosophy might be another story). --This is the fourth time I've tried to rewrite what I want to say before hitting reply and it just isn't working out. It's a long topic, and abbreviating it simply turns it into a rant. If you really believe that degrees/credits don't matter, then you should be careful when and where you stray from that principle. If the choice is between two people with no experience, no portfolio, but a degree and maybe an interview, then it's virtually unavoidable. But, if they have work to back themselves up then why even look at their degree? Even if you have certain feelings about certain places (like UPhoenix), you're better off getting what you need to know from an interview since you never know the circumstances that led people there anyway (and there are many... visa requirements, money combined with being ill-informed about other options, etc).
  - pessimizer 14y ago
    I'd say that if you're thinking about doing Phoenix, save the money and just learn from all of the random resources online - and whether you went the autodidact route instead of Phoenix or after learning nothing at Phoenix, you had better lead with your portfolio. Probably better to just leave out Phoenix altogether from your resume as an expensive mistake. And, if people won't look at you even though you can show them a pile of good work that you've done - that probably wouldn't be the greatest place to work anyway. Phoenix is no better than no credential at all, and also implies a general ignorance of the tech industry. In addition it costs twice as much per year as state school did per degree, and dozens of times as much as the internet and old editions of books from http://used.addall.com http://used.addall.com :)
btian 14y ago
I think you misunderstood his point. He's saying that for Coursera, Udacity, and edX, they need to make a choice of making their courses available, or getting them accredited, but not both. Clearly they have made their choice.
- evoxed 14y ago
  I am addressing the second part only so far as it affects his observations. Otherwise I agree with his post (especially the complex issue part, heh). But in response to your paraphrase, my hope is that they don't end up locked in to that duality. A degree may be an ideal endgame, but the next best thing would be to bypass the accreditation steps and work on a sort of transfer credit treaty. It's in between accredited course and CLEP subject test.

by evoxed 14y ago

pessimizer 14y ago

He didn't add in community college with for-profit fake college ("people who can be relied on not to know enough to perform"), he just said that students from Stanford and MIT are generally more capable. You went to community college, like I did (for the entire first half of my university career - Oakton Community College represent!), so you can't think that's a completely unreasonable statement. OCC certainly wasn't MIT, but it was a place where you could learn a lot of your undergrad math. Not to say that you won't find people that will dismiss you out of hand, but you'll find that if you're black, or from out of state, or went to Yale instead of Harvard or Harvard instead of Yale - depending on the person you're talking to. Some people have really horrible quality heuristics:) But he's not doing it.

evoxed 14y ago
It could be 100% accurate but I still don't think it does anything to help the argument that a degree/credits shouldn't matter. I've gotten used to people requiring an explanation for a degree from TXCC, but frankly some of those top-school grads could probably do some explaining too after seeing some of the portfolios that come in... I wish I could compare to MIT but since I have no acquaintances there, I can only draw comparisons between a few programs in art and design (philosophy might be another story). --This is the fourth time I've tried to rewrite what I want to say before hitting reply and it just isn't working out. It's a long topic, and abbreviating it simply turns it into a rant. If you really believe that degrees/credits don't matter, then you should be careful when and where you stray from that principle. If the choice is between two people with no experience, no portfolio, but a degree and maybe an interview, then it's virtually unavoidable. But, if they have work to back themselves up then why even look at their degree? Even if you have certain feelings about certain places (like UPhoenix), you're better off getting what you need to know from an interview since you never know the circumstances that led people there anyway (and there are many... visa requirements, money combined with being ill-informed about other options, etc).
- pessimizer 14y ago
  I'd say that if you're thinking about doing Phoenix, save the money and just learn from all of the random resources online - and whether you went the autodidact route instead of Phoenix or after learning nothing at Phoenix, you had better lead with your portfolio. Probably better to just leave out Phoenix altogether from your resume as an expensive mistake. And, if people won't look at you even though you can show them a pile of good work that you've done - that probably wouldn't be the greatest place to work anyway. Phoenix is no better than no credential at all, and also implies a general ignorance of the tech industry. In addition it costs twice as much per year as state school did per degree, and dozens of times as much as the internet and old editions of books from http://used.addall.com http://used.addall.com :)

btian 14y ago

I think you misunderstood his point. He's saying that for Coursera, Udacity, and edX, they need to make a choice of making their courses available, or getting them accredited, but not both. Clearly they have made their choice.

evoxed 14y ago
I am addressing the second part only so far as it affects his observations. Otherwise I agree with his post (especially the complex issue part, heh). But in response to your paraphrase, my hope is that they don't end up locked in to that duality. A degree may be an ideal endgame, but the next best thing would be to bypass the accreditation steps and work on a sort of transfer credit treaty. It's in between accredited course and CLEP subject test.